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    Author Topic: Death to the mercenary miners!  (Read 4127 times)

    • Lupus_Yonderboy
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    July 18, 2011, 10:00:15 PM
     #21
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 18, 2011, 07:35:18 PM
    No, of course not, you genius. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with the free trades and the inevitable high frequency churn it facilitates, could it?   Couldn't possibly be the same coins traded over and over, right?

    So you are saying the entire volume has been miners selling off their immediate gains and then bots recycling the coins back and forth? Really? So what about the guy who dumped ~10k bitcoins in the market last Monday? Was that miners instantly selling their earnings or bots? Or how about any of the other large (>1000 btc) asks that have been there all last week and weekend, effectively stalling the market and causing its gradual decline?

    Nice way to try and shift the blame to miners tho. Here, let me tell you a little something, boy. I'm cracking 6 Ghash/s and I am making ~3btc per day. Your average miner, he's got a lot less hardware and is lucky to be making even .75 btc/day. I highly doubt they are taking their .75 btc that they mined that day and immediately selling it. And even if they did, your precious bots would eat those btc up without even blinking. Miners aren't the ones causing excess supply in the market, early adopters and speculators who hold a lot of bitcoins are.

    I do hope that your little fantasy world is warm and that everyone likes you there. Out here in the real world we know better. Do you honestly believe that load of horseshit you spewed at the top of this thread? If so then you are definitely one useful idiot. If you don't believe it, then you are probably one of the ones trying to quietly exit stage left before the inevitible panic selling begins.

  • Rob P.
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    July 18, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
     #22
    How'd you get your coins?  Oh yea, Miners who sold them.

    Nuff said.
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  • DrKennethNoisewater
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    July 18, 2011, 10:45:41 PM
     #23
    Never, Never, Never, Under any Circumstances............................

    Underestimate the power of STUPIDITY!

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  • repentance
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    July 18, 2011, 10:58:47 PM
     #24
    If you're in it for the long haul and not planning on selling your own coins in the short or medium term, then why are you concerned about the current downward pressure on price?
    All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.

  • haploid23
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    July 18, 2011, 11:14:19 PM
     #25
    Quote from: Rob P. on July 18, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
    How'd you get your coins?  Oh yea, Miners who sold them.

    Nuff said.
    yes but the amount of coins newly introduced into the market is less than the old coins that are constantly being bought and sold again.
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  • repentance
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    July 18, 2011, 11:28:34 PM
     #26
    Quote from: haploid23 on July 18, 2011, 11:14:19 PM
    Quote from: Rob P. on July 18, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
    How'd you get your coins?  Oh yea, Miners who sold them.

    Nuff said.
    yes but the amount of coins newly introduced into the market is less than the old coins that are constantly being bought and sold again.

    Which indicates that a lot of traders are speculating - which is no less mercenary than miners cashing out as they go and is a perfectly legitimate reason to enter a market anyway. 
    All I can say is that this is Bitcoin. I don't believe it until I see six confirmations.

  • billyjoeallen (OP)
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    July 19, 2011, 05:56:48 AM
     #27
    Quote from: Rob P. on July 18, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
    How'd you get your coins?  Oh yea, Miners who sold them.

    Nuff said.

    Yeah and thanks for that. Got some more at $12.8 yesterday :-)
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  • FreeMoney
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    July 19, 2011, 06:16:56 AM
     #28
    Quote from: arnoldrimmer on July 18, 2011, 06:01:20 PM
    Quote from: arnoldrimmer on July 18, 2011, 05:57:50 PM
    How is the Price driven down can someone explain it to me?

    bumb

    At any given time there is a set of people with a desire to buy at certain prices. A seller generally tries to find the highest price and satisfies it with a sale, now that is desired and the highest desired price is a little lower. Make sense? It's pretty easy to see inside of one market, but the forces exist beyond any one meeting place of buyers and sellers.
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  • FreeMoney
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    July 19, 2011, 06:37:13 AM
     #29
    "Mercenary miners" are totally fine imo. They are selling us coins and security. Really there isn't anyone anywhere selling something better  Smiley

    There is no reason at all that the people with hardware and tech skills need or should be the same ones who provide the value to coins by desiring and holding them in the face of high offers.
    Play Bitcoin Poker at sealswithclubs.eu. We're active and open to everyone.

  • Rob P.
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    July 19, 2011, 01:34:17 PM
     #30
    Quote from: haploid23 on July 18, 2011, 11:14:19 PM
    Quote from: Rob P. on July 18, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
    How'd you get your coins?  Oh yea, Miners who sold them.

    Nuff said.
    yes but the amount of coins newly introduced into the market is less than the old coins that are constantly being bought and sold again.

    6.853 million (in circulation) < 14.147 million (left to be mined)

    Nuff said.
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  • billyjoeallen (OP)
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    July 19, 2011, 02:05:16 PM
     #31
    Quote from: Lupus_Yonderboy on July 18, 2011, 10:00:15 PM

    So you are saying the entire volume has been miners selling off their immediate gains and then bots recycling the coins back and forth? Really?


    yes, the downward pressure in excess of demand is almost entirely caused by mercenary miners, the fools who made long-term capital investments based on short-term trends and who are now trying to minimize their losses at the expense of everyone who is working toward the long-term stability and viability of the project.  The last laugh is on them, however.  They need us more than we need them.

    I got in again below $13 thanks to their desperation. :-D
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  • Rob P.
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    July 19, 2011, 02:14:34 PM
     #32
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 02:05:16 PM
    Quote from: Lupus_Yonderboy on July 18, 2011, 10:00:15 PM

    So you are saying the entire volume has been miners selling off their immediate gains and then bots recycling the coins back and forth? Really?


    yes, the downward pressure in excess of demand is almost entirely caused by mercenary miners, the fools who made long-term capital investments based on short-term trends and who are now trying to minimize their losses at the expense of everyone who is working toward the long-term stability and viability of the project.  The last laugh is on them, however.  They need us more than we need them.

    I got in again below $13 thanks to their desperation. :-D

    Wrong.  This can easily be proven.

    6 blocks hour = 144 blocks day
    144 blocks = 7,200 BTC day
    Today's volume at Mt. Gox (so far): 113,985

    So, if every miner sold every coin, as soon as they mined it, they would only amount to 6% of the total volume (so far, gets smaller as the day goes on).  Clearly, miners selling coins as soon as they mine them has very little impact on the total volume of trades happening.  As a miner selling a coin can only happen once.  That same coin is then being bought and sold, on average, another 16 times in that day.  Miners aren't doing it, speculators are.

    Umad?

     
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  • billyjoeallen (OP)
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    July 19, 2011, 02:21:59 PM
     #33
    Quote from: Rob P. on July 19, 2011, 02:14:34 PM
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 02:05:16 PM
    Quote from: Lupus_Yonderboy on July 18, 2011, 10:00:15 PM

    So you are saying the entire volume has been miners selling off their immediate gains and then bots recycling the coins back and forth? Really?


    yes, the downward pressure in excess of demand is almost entirely caused by mercenary miners, the fools who made long-term capital investments based on short-term trends and who are now trying to minimize their losses at the expense of everyone who is working toward the long-term stability and viability of the project.  The last laugh is on them, however.  They need us more than we need them.

    I got in again below $13 thanks to their desperation. :-D

    Wrong.  This can easily be proven.

    6 blocks hour = 144 blocks day
    144 blocks = 7,200 BTC day
    Today's volume at Mt. Gox (so far): 113,985

    So, if every miner sold every coin, as soon as they mined it, they would only amount to 6% of the total volume (so far, gets smaller as the day goes on).  Clearly, miners selling coins as soon as they mine them has very little impact on the total volume of trades happening.  As a miner selling a coin can only happen once.  That same coin is then being bought and sold, on average, another 16 times in that day.  Miners aren't doing it, speculators are.

    Umad?

    I already addressed that. It's churn due to free trading. Put another way, if NO (as in zero) miners sold any of their coins, do you still think prices would fall? 
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  • skyhigh
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    July 19, 2011, 02:37:51 PM
     #34
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 02:21:59 PM

    I already addressed that. It's churn due to free trading. Put another way, if NO (as in zero) miners sold any of their coins, do you still think prices would fall? 

    You are really something special. IF NO miners would ever sell any ( as in zero ) coins, SMARTS like you wouldn't hold any. There would be no price for them also. How's that brainiac ?!

  • Rob P.
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    July 19, 2011, 02:47:04 PM
     #35
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 02:21:59 PM

    I already addressed that. It's churn due to free trading. Put another way, if NO (as in zero) miners sold any of their coins, do you still think prices would fall? 

    I called my econ prof, he said, "Yes" and I agree with him.

    You see, supply > demand right now, so the price falls.
    If supply < demand, the price would rise.

    You've made the mistake of assuming the only "supply" of coins is miners.  That's not true.  The BULK of the supply is actually people who already own coins putting them up for sale.

    The 7200 coins per day are not a "significant" supply to the market.  The other 105,000 coins being offered for sale ARE.  So even if the miners' coins were gone, the price would still fall, because people aren't buying coins for what sellers are currently asking.  As evidenced by the MUCH larger trading volume. 

    Now, if the trading volume in a day was just the 7200 coins for that day, you'd have a point.  Since it's 16X that, you don't. 
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  • Grinder
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    July 19, 2011, 03:17:05 PM
     #36
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 18, 2011, 05:21:51 PM
    I didn't quit my day job. I can afford to wait. Time is on my side, but not on yours.  You'r only goal was to extract profits from speculators like me. Now, your future looks bleak while I see many buying opportunities ahead for myself.
    So you're basically really angry at the miners because they sold you coins for a much lower price than you think they are worth. Has anything ever made you happy?

  • billyjoeallen (OP)
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    July 19, 2011, 03:25:00 PM
     #37
    Quote from: Rob P. on July 19, 2011, 02:47:04 PM

    I called my econ prof, he said, "Yes" and I agree with him.

    Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy, especial econ professors.

    Quote

    You've made the mistake of assuming the only "supply" of coins is miners.  That's not true.  The BULK of the supply is actually people who already own coins putting them up for sale.

    I haven't made that assumption at all. I claim that without additional coins being mined and brought to market, supply would equal demand and price would be stable OR supply would be less than demand and prices would rise until supply did equal demand.

    Quote
    The 7200 coins per day are not a "significant" supply to the market. 

    yes. yes they are. imagine an enclosed 5 gallon tank that is completely filled with water. Now add another pint of water. What do you think that does to the pressure? That's why small cap assets fluctuate so wildly.
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  • Grinder
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    July 19, 2011, 04:37:29 PM
     #38
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 03:25:00 PM
    I haven't made that assumption at all. I claim that without additional coins being mined and brought to market, supply would equal demand and price would be stable OR supply would be less than demand and prices would rise until supply did equal demand.
    You're still wrong, though. There's nothing forcing those who buy coins to keep them or not sell unless the price is at least what they paid for them. The main reason why there is demand for bitcoins is that buyers expect the price to go up. When enough people stop expecting that they will try to sell. That's why the price is no longer $30, not because miners sell coins.

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    July 19, 2011, 05:02:59 PM
     #39
    Quote from: Grinder on July 19, 2011, 04:37:29 PM
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 03:25:00 PM
    I haven't made that assumption at all. I claim that without additional coins being mined and brought to market, supply would equal demand and price would be stable OR supply would be less than demand and prices would rise until supply did equal demand.
    You're still wrong, though. There's nothing forcing those who buy coins to keep them or not sell unless the price is at least what they paid for them. The main reason why there is demand for bitcoins is that buyers expect the price to go up. When enough people stop expecting that they will try to sell. That's why the price is no longer $30, not because miners sell coins.

    That's like saying the main reason why the Yankees won is because the Red Sox lost. It's true, but it doesn't explain anything.
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  • Grinder
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    July 19, 2011, 06:20:27 PM
     #40
    Quote from: billyjoeallen on July 19, 2011, 05:02:59 PM
    That's like saying the main reason why the Yankees won is because the Red Sox lost. It's true, but it doesn't explain anything.
    It's only necessarily true if they played in the same game. There is an almost infinite amount of options which can make you wrong, so if you can't see a single one of them it must be because you don't want to.
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