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    Author Topic: U.S regulation on Bitcoin fundamentally cannot work  (Read 1391 times)

    • abel1337 (OP)
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    November 10, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
     #1
    BTCecause of how bitcoin works, even if the government wanted to put regulations on trading bitcoin in and they would not work. What is stopping me from giving my neighbor cash at the end of the street for his bitcoins? How can the government ever be aware of transactions like that?

    Bitcoin is truly amazing. Not just the idea itself, but what it represents to the world and its people. There was a time period in the U.S, much like the time described in the book "Atlas Shrugged," when the producers and free thinking part of society gave up because of all the government regulations. It seems they didn't die. They just went into hiding and "John Galt" is back now. His name is Satoshi Nakomoto.

    Already, after recent political threats hit the media, people have went to work thinking of ways to combat the system is anything ever were to happen. I just read about a frickin' "black wallet" being created?.. Its crazy whats happening in the world right now.

    I have been talking about this very same subject with a few of my peers and some agree with me but some say if the government wanted to they would put a stop to it. Haha one of my friends went as far as to say the government will start killing people. Idk maybe thats not too far fetched.. We are talking about the entire currency system in the U.S collapsing. I'm more interested in how long its going to take to get there.

    Shout out to all the bitcoin supporters out there. This movement would be nothing without you guys. Shout out to the miners for not creating selfish pools that screw everyone yet lol. And shout out to the people who say Im crazy for buying bitcoins. I need people like you so my agenda gets boosted exponentially when bitcoin hits 1000. Do you even bitcoin? Come at me bro

  • Ecurb123
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    November 10, 2013, 10:08:44 PM
     #2
    I agree it make will make it harder for them, which of course is great, however I think they could still exist and tax even in an exclusively bitcoin environment. I'm not expert and haven't spent anytime thinking about but even I can think of some ways.

  • nobbynobbynoob
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    November 10, 2013, 10:10:26 PM
     #3
    Quote from: Ecurb123 on November 10, 2013, 10:08:44 PM
    I agree it make will make it harder for them, which of course is great, however I think they could still exist and tax even in an exclusively bitcoin environment. I'm not expert and haven't spent anytime thinking about but even I can think of some ways.

    I reckon so too: the Internet didn't kill the nation state (alas!), and bitcoin won't unless the people really want that to happen. The least we can achieve, however, is to move the Laffer curve significantly leftwards.
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  • abel1337 (OP)
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    November 10, 2013, 10:19:26 PM
     #4
    Quote from: Ecurb123 on November 10, 2013, 10:08:44 PM
    I agree it make will make it harder for them, which of course is great, however I think they could still exist and tax even in an exclusively bitcoin environment. I'm not expert and haven't spent anytime thinking about but even I can think of some ways.

    How would this work if it turns out that nobody even wants fiat anymore? The governement wouldnt be able to do anything about it. Fiat money has been around in the United states just shortly after 1971 when we got rid of the gold standard (don't quote me on that). The way the U.s Dollar is set up.. Its still young.. and its failing miserably. In the few years fiat currency has been around in the United States, there has been more inflation than the entire century of turmoil between the Napoleanic wars and WWI. The time is now coming where people are beginning to see the dollar is ultimatley going to fail and knowing that they take measurments to prepare. Bitcoin is a small example. Have you guys heard about 3d printing? Technology is crazy right now, and its only getting better faster.. We are in for an interesting ride the in the next 50 years

  • Vigil
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    November 11, 2013, 04:50:36 AM
     #5
    The State thinks it can regulate it. From the Fed Bitcoin Primer:

    Quote
    Should bitcoin become widely accepted, it is unlikely that it will remain free of government intervention, if only because the governance of the bitcoin code and network is opaque and vulnerable.

    Sounds like they are pretty confident they can not only take-over the code but also the network. Here is how they would do it... wait til bitcoin becomes widely accepted, fund their own or find large investors to fund ASIC development by IBM or Intel to take-over the network, modify the Bitcoin protocol, launch a 51% attack, then make it illegal for anyone to use an alternate protocol. Take-over complete. The vast majority of people will use the government code and new fork without quibbling. That is as simple as it gets. That is entirely doable without question.

  • Ford
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    November 11, 2013, 05:00:48 AM
     #6
    don't underestimate the power of world governments, there are lots of people sitting in locked rooms that on once underestimated "them"!

    Just because there will always be away around most regulations, does not mean it can not be regulated.
    Basically how regulations work is: they "suggest" how they things will work, and if you dont do it their way, that becomes a crime (and if you are caught, you also get your own "locked room" to sit in).

    (i.e guns are regulated, but it will still not stop you shooting people with them, but if you get caught, you are off to jail)
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  • Ford
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    November 11, 2013, 05:10:56 AM
     #7
    Quote from: abel1337 on November 10, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
    We are talking about the entire currency system in the U.S collapsing. I'm more interested in how long its going to take to get there.

    with respect: i can not see how this will ever happen (i know a lot of people claim it, but i have never seen anyone giving a good argument for how it will happen). It would also not be a good thing.

    Much as people disslike some aspects of the "western countries" that they/we live in, on a whole, they give us a good life and much better than some poor countries/people.
    If you take too many of these "good life" things away from us (and a collapse of currency and government) and then your/our country becomes like Somalia (or worse) where there is little/no law or the law is made by the gang of thugs with guns...
    (i dont like my Prime Minister, mainly because he is a dick, but i would not swap him or our governments shit ways for that of Somalia's or a country with no laws or economy)
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  • Mike Christ
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    November 11, 2013, 05:17:38 AM
     #8
    Quote from: Ford on November 11, 2013, 05:10:56 AM
    Quote from: abel1337 on November 10, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
    We are talking about the entire currency system in the U.S collapsing. I'm more interested in how long its going to take to get there.

    with respect: i can not see how this will ever happen (i know a lot of people claim it, but i have never seen anyone giving a good argument for how it will happen). It would also not be a good thing.

    Much as people disslike some aspects of the "western countries" that they/we live in, on a whole, they give us a good life and much better than some poor countries/people.
    If you take too many of these "good life" things away from us (and a collapse of currency and government) and then your/our country becomes like Somalia (or worse) where there is little/no law or the law is made by the gang of thugs with guns...
    (i dont like my Prime Minister, mainly because he is a dick, but i would not swap him or our governments shit ways for that of Somalia's or a country with no laws or economy)

    Have you seen this video yet?  It might shed some light on the whole economic collapse thing.

    As for the other point; nobody gives us any kind of life but us, we work to give ourselves a good life.  All "they" do is take credit.  Society shapes their government, not the other way around.  Somalia wasn't a paradise with a government, it's about as bad as it was without.
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  • abel1337 (OP)
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    November 11, 2013, 05:18:01 AM
     #9
    Quote from: Ford on November 11, 2013, 05:10:56 AM
    Quote from: abel1337 on November 10, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
    We are talking about the entire currency system in the U.S collapsing. I'm more interested in how long its going to take to get there.

    with respect: i can not see how this will ever happen (i know a lot of people claim it, but i have never seen anyone giving a good argument for how it will happen). It would also not be a good thing.

    Much as people disslike some aspects of the "western countries" that they/we live in, on a whole, they give us a good life and much better than some poor countries/people.
    If you take too many of these "good life" things away from us (and a collapse of currency and government) and then your/our country becomes like Somalia (or worse) where there is little/no law or the law is made by the gang of thugs with guns...
    (i dont like my Prime Minister, mainly because he is a dick, but i would not swap him or our governments shit ways for that of Somalia's or a country with no laws or economy)

    If the dollar collapses, that does not mean our government will collapse. People will still be honest and pay their taxes as they have for generations.. The good argument behind the currency collapsing would be simple demand theory. If no one wants it anymore its worthless. If hte government makes it less profitable to use their dollar over someone elses dollar (a bitcoin) on a massive scale, people are going to move away from fiat money. It makes total sense and the argument is valid

  • assortmentofsorts
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    November 11, 2013, 05:30:16 AM
     #10
    Quote from: Ecurb123 on November 10, 2013, 10:08:44 PM
    I agree it make will make it harder for them, which of course is great, however I think they could still exist and tax even in an exclusively bitcoin environment. I'm not expert and haven't spent anytime thinking about but even I can think of some ways.

    There will be no need for taxing citizens. If the world embraces bitcoin, then privatization will become the new norm. Governments will be dissolved and most of the functions performed by the Government will be taken over by small businesses instead. Crowdfunding will enable people to fund companies that want to build roads, bridges etc without involving a middle man (a.k.a the Government). Accountability and transparency will be greatly improved.

    The democracy that we enjoy (except a few nations) is a farce. The max it allows is right to vote. Once you elect your reps, you have no control over the decisions they take. With true decentralization, policy making will not restricted to the elite few... now the community as a whole will participate in prioritizing requirements <- True democracy. Lets face it... most of our tax money just goes to two places: arms and politicians pockets.. whatever little is left is used for the welfare of the citizens of the nation.
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  • Mike Christ
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    November 11, 2013, 05:34:50 AM
     #11
    Quote from: assortmentofsorts on November 11, 2013, 05:30:16 AM
    Lets face it... most of our tax money just goes to two places: arms and politicians pockets.. whatever little is left is used for the welfare of the citizens of the nation.


    If wish even this was true.  All of our tax money goes into paying off the interest on debts accrued to fund welfare and roads and military.  Private gains, public losses, that's the name of the game for the states and the banks hovering over them.
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  • Ford
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    November 11, 2013, 05:35:01 AM
     #12
    Quote from: abel1337 on November 11, 2013, 05:18:01 AM
    Quote from: Ford on November 11, 2013, 05:10:56 AM
    Quote from: abel1337 on November 10, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
    We are talking about the entire currency system in the U.S collapsing. I'm more interested in how long its going to take to get there.

    with respect: i can not see how this will ever happen (i know a lot of people claim it, but i have never seen anyone giving a good argument for how it will happen). It would also not be a good thing.

    Much as people disslike some aspects of the "western countries" that they/we live in, on a whole, they give us a good life and much better than some poor countries/people.
    If you take too many of these "good life" things away from us (and a collapse of currency and government) and then your/our country becomes like Somalia (or worse) where there is little/no law or the law is made by the gang of thugs with guns...
    (i dont like my Prime Minister, mainly because he is a dick, but i would not swap him or our governments shit ways for that of Somalia's or a country with no laws or economy)

    If the dollar collapses, that does not mean our government will collapse. People will still be honest and pay their taxes as they have for generations.. The good argument behind the currency collapsing would be simple demand theory. If no one wants it anymore its worthless. If hte government makes it less profitable to use their dollar over someone elses dollar (a bitcoin) on a massive scale, people are going to move away from fiat money. It makes total sense and the argument is valid

    I agree that the financial system is broken and needs to change (or will collapse) (thats why we are all here  Grin) but it is not the dollar itself that is evil or broken, but maybe the people that currently have large influence over it.
    Ford Ka - http://smallgreenpiecesofpaper.com/

  • abel1337 (OP)
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    November 11, 2013, 05:37:31 AM
     #13
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    There will be no need for taxing citizens. If the world embraces bitcoin, then privatization will become the new norm. Governments will be dissolved and most of the functions performed by the Government will be taken over by small businesses instead. Crowdfunding will enable people to fund companies that want to build roads, bridges etc without involving a middle man (a.k.a the Government). Accountability and transparency will be greatly improved.

    I completely agree with you and this is the way it seems things are heading all on their own, It helps that we remain avid supporters, but the following is so big right now, trying to drown out bitcoin would be like trying to kill a catfish. Its not happening, it will die on its own in due time. But that time, judging by these trends, looks like it could be a while before we see something replace the bitcoin.

  • seafarer124
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    November 11, 2013, 07:08:53 AM
     #14
    Now Bitcoin has been released to the world, it will bring greater benefits to more people.

    It will not drag people down it will lift people up, fiat is presently doing the opposite.  Hopefully, the gap between the have and have nots will get smaller.

    What I really hope it does is drag the ones down that have been exploiting this planet for far too long.

    It is only the greedy minority, ie. the establishment, that are scared.

  • Come-from-Beyond
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    November 11, 2013, 08:35:23 AM
     #15
    Quote from: abel1337 on November 10, 2013, 09:32:16 PM
    What is stopping me from giving my neighbor cash at the end of the street for his bitcoins? How can the government ever be aware of transactions like that?

    What is stopping me from giving my neighbor cash at the end of the street for his bitcoins weed? How can the government ever be aware of transactions like that?

    The answer is the same.

  • Ecurb123
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    November 11, 2013, 05:58:37 PM
     #16
    Quote from: abel1337 on November 10, 2013, 10:19:26 PM
    Quote from: Ecurb123 on November 10, 2013, 10:08:44 PM
    I agree it make will make it harder for them, which of course is great, however I think they could still exist and tax even in an exclusively bitcoin environment. I'm not expert and haven't spent anytime thinking about but even I can think of some ways.

    How would this work if it turns out that nobody even wants fiat anymore? The governement wouldnt be able to do anything about it. Fiat money has been around in the United states just shortly after 1971 when we got rid of the gold standard (don't quote me on that). The way the U.s Dollar is set up.. Its still young.. and its failing miserably. In the few years fiat currency has been around in the United States, there has been more inflation than the entire century of turmoil between the Napoleanic wars and WWI. The time is now coming where people are beginning to see the dollar is ultimatley going to fail and knowing that they take measurments to prepare. Bitcoin is a small example. Have you guys heard about 3d printing? Technology is crazy right now, and its only getting better faster.. We are in for an interesting ride the in the next 50 years

    I get where you're coming from, but at the end of the day there are too many people who don't and won't. In practical terms all they have to do is say "Thou shall pay 50% of your btc earning per year to the state, failure to do so will result in minimum 5 years in prison! If thou art loyal and anonymously reports the deviants who seek to destroy our way of life, thou will be rewarded up to 100 btc"

  • Lethn
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    November 11, 2013, 06:12:09 PM
     #17
    We've already seen that the FBI can't access Bitcoins after they've arrested someone, for those who don't know the silkroad marketplace owner was arrested but because he encrypted his wallet with a password they weren't able to get at the rest of his money. So what they are going to do with all these other people who will sit in jail with millions that the government can't steal and extort anymore I don't know but it's going to be fucking hilarious to watch.

    Sure, they could try torture or killing people, but in the end that's using physical violence and I think when it comes to that you have every right to fight back no matter what 'law' says.

  • Come-from-Beyond
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    November 11, 2013, 06:51:30 PM
     #18
    Quote from: Lethn on November 11, 2013, 06:12:09 PM
    We've already seen that the FBI can't access Bitcoins after they've arrested someone, for those who don't know the silkroad marketplace owner was arrested but because he encrypted his wallet with a password they weren't able to get at the rest of his money.

    They got all his money.
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