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    Author Topic: Enough about the online wallets == part 2  (Read 4025 times)

    • markm
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    August 07, 2011, 01:59:15 AM
     #41
    Quote from: ffuentes on August 07, 2011, 01:50:28 AM
    Quote from: error on August 07, 2011, 01:45:39 AM
    Quote from: ffuentes on August 07, 2011, 01:14:56 AM
    Quote from: error on August 07, 2011, 01:08:10 AM
    Quote from: ffuentes on August 06, 2011, 11:28:38 PM
    If transactions takes a long time, bitcoin needs intermediaries. In VISA Paywave, it's clear who is it. But Bitcoin network is too slow for the real world.

    You believe that any merchant would agree to accept unconfirmed transactions, but if they doesn't. A merchant may not want taking that risk, even exchangers and online wallets waits for confirmations and they are experts in the bitcoin business.

    The Bitcoin network is far faster than the VISA network! It takes DAYS to settle a VISA transaction; a Bitcoin transaction is settled in minutes.

    But the confirmation takes a long time, unaffordable in a real life store, credit cards takes long time in complete the whole operation but confirmation is almost instantaneous. And products like VISA Paywave are even more efficient.

    You mean authorization? Sure, on the VISA network this takes a few seconds; it also takes a few seconds on the Bitcoin network.

    No, the bitcoin network takes more than seconds, it has to wait until a block is resolved (and if the block accept include it) to the nodes can see the transaction.

    Bullshit.

    It takes a few seconds or less for a node on the VISA network to confirm that the transaction has been received by the net so will very likely be propagated through the net, just as it does with bitcoin.

    Oh but with bitcoin your very own machine can be such a node, thus confirm in microseconds or milliseconds that it has been received by a node (yours) and thus barring some catastrophe such as the node losing contact with the net it will be propagated over the net.

    So in the VISA case it takes a few seconds or less to know that you will find out in six months whether the transaction is for real, and with the bitcoin network it takes a few seconds or less to know that you will find out in 120 blocks whether it is as real as a freshly minted bitcoin barely long enough out of the minting process to be an actual bitcoin at all, which one might be tempted to say is as real as bitcoins get were it not that they keep getting more and more and more real block after block after block...

    -MarkM-
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  • ffuentes
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    August 07, 2011, 02:23:56 AM
     #42
    Quote from: markm on August 07, 2011, 01:59:15 AM


    Bullshit.

    It takes a few seconds or less for a node on the VISA network to confirm that the transaction has been received by the net so will very likely be propagated through the net, just as it does with bitcoin.

    Oh but with bitcoin your very own machine can be such a node, thus confirm in microseconds or milliseconds that it has been received by a node (yours) and thus barring some catastrophe such as the node losing contact with the net it will be propagated over the net.

    So in the VISA case it takes a few seconds or less to know that you will find out in six months whether the transaction is for real, and with the bitcoin network it takes a few seconds or less to know that you will find out in 120 blocks whether it is as real as a freshly minted bitcoin barely long enough out of the minting process to be an actual bitcoin at all, which one might be tempted to say is as real as bitcoins get were it not that they keep getting more and more and more real block after block after block...

    -MarkM-


    If the bitcoin network can assure fast transactions, I take back what I said. I'm not putting VISA or Mastercard as a better payment methods, I'm just talking about instantaneousness, it's obvious that credit/debit cards works in other way and the existance of chargebacks is actual but it's not the matter.

    Seems like is a taboo talking about escrows for certain people.
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  • markm
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    August 07, 2011, 02:32:45 AM
     #43
    Quote from: ffuentes on August 07, 2011, 02:23:56 AM
    If the bitcoin network can assure fast transactions, I take back what I said. I'm not putting VISA or Mastercard as a better payment methods, I'm just talking about instantaneousness, it's obvious that credit/debit cards works in other way and the existance of chargebacks is actual but it's not the matter.

    Seems like is a taboo talking about escrows for certain people.

    If chargebacks are not {the matter? does that mean "a problem"} then fine, bitcoin and VISA both have chargebacks, with bitcoin it could turn out any time in the next hour or two after doing the transaction that it is afterall a chargeback whereas wih VISA it could take six months to learn that it is a chargeback. But if you don't care about chargebacks, either is just as good/fast but VISA probably more expensive (as it also has to cover the case of you cheating the customer by not delivering the goods purchased.)

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  • BrianH
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    August 07, 2011, 03:00:49 AM
     #44
    I think Grandma just realized how complicated it was and sold all her bitcoins. That's why the crash.
    Bitcoin: "a purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution." -Satoshi Nakamoto
    On government, "We are trying to develop a system of mathematics that eliminates the need for trust and the need for control." -John McAffee

  • error
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    August 07, 2011, 03:02:03 AM
     #45
    The Bitcoin network sends transaction notifications in real time. How else could the transaction processors know they existed in order to put them into blocks? In one of my windows on my screen I am watching every transaction on the network scroll by in real time. It goes pretty fast. Smiley Soon the network will be too big to do this, but it's OK for now...
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  • Phinnaeus Gage
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    August 07, 2011, 03:13:25 AM
     #46
    Quote from: ffuentes on August 06, 2011, 07:41:05 PM
    Quote from: Shinobi on August 06, 2011, 04:11:50 PM
    If e-wallets are the future, and i think they are if Bitcoin is to succeed, then regulation will be required. But you libertards don't want this - instead, thinking that some web of trust will be enough to sel-regulate. Look
    where that got everyone.

    But how would   you regulate this? UABB?

    I'm not a libertard but what you are requesting is almost impossible.

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  • joepie91
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    August 07, 2011, 07:12:03 AM
     #47
    I feel the issue is not online wallets, but insecure online wallets. How is an online wallet without 2 factor authentication even expected to work well and be secure?
    Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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  • Pentium100
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    August 07, 2011, 07:49:41 AM
     #48
    Quote from: joepie91 on August 07, 2011, 07:12:03 AM
    I feel the issue is not online wallets, but insecure online wallets. How is an online wallet without 2 factor authentication even expected to work well and be secure?
    It is also a matter of trust. How do you know that the owner won't disappear with all of the bitcoins of the users?
    Then, the security is also a concern. It is not possible to know whether the system (no matter how many authentication factors it uses) is secure or not, well, until it is hacked (I think Sony though that their system was secure until the hack too). Next is the account security. Two factor authentication is a must, and all banks in my country use two factor (a regular password and a "password card" or a password generator) authentication for online banking.

    Unless some big companies (Google, banks etc) start providing this service online wallets will be untrustworthy. Security, well, some companies havve better security track record than others, so maybe they know what they are doing.
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  • joepie91
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    August 07, 2011, 09:59:47 PM
     #49
    Quote from: Pentium100 on August 07, 2011, 07:49:41 AM
    Quote from: joepie91 on August 07, 2011, 07:12:03 AM
    I feel the issue is not online wallets, but insecure online wallets. How is an online wallet without 2 factor authentication even expected to work well and be secure?
    It is also a matter of trust. How do you know that the owner won't disappear with all of the bitcoins of the users?
    Then, the security is also a concern. It is not possible to know whether the system (no matter how many authentication factors it uses) is secure or not, well, until it is hacked (I think Sony though that their system was secure until the hack too). Next is the account security. Two factor authentication is a must, and all banks in my country use two factor (a regular password and a "password card" or a password generator) authentication for online banking.

    Unless some big companies (Google, banks etc) start providing this service online wallets will be untrustworthy. Security, well, some companies havve better security track record than others, so maybe they know what they are doing.
    Eggs, basket, etc.

    Or: why you should spread out your funds over multiple providers.
    Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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