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    Author Topic: Hardware/software recommendations for node/lightning/electrs/more  (Read 476 times)
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    • o_e_l_e_o (OP)
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    April 07, 2023, 02:58:20 PM
    Merited by LoyceV (4)
     #1
    With the death of some old hardware I was using to run one of my nodes plus a few other bits and pieces, I've decided I'd quite like to simplify my always-on home hardware down to a single device.

    With that in mind, I'm looking for both hardware and software recommendations for a standalone device capable of running the usual Bitcoin and Lightning nodes, but in addition to that, an Electrum server, an instance of mempool.space, a coinjoin server (be that JoinMarket or Samourai Dojo), and Bisq. I'd also like to potentially use this device to run a variety of non-bitcoin software, such as Pi-hole, personalized cloud storage, potentially a home media server, that sort of thing. Having looked in to it a bit, it seems that Umbrel might be the most straightforward way to do all this, and can run everything I've listed above except Bisq (although an app appears to be in the works).

    My first question is whether anyone who has experience with this kind of thing would disagree about using Umbrel and would suggest just running something like Debian (or any other Linux distro)?

    My second question is whether anyone could suggest some hardware which would be most appropriate for this. My main considerations are low power usage and being powerful enough to run everything I've listed above. I had originally looked at a Raspberry Pi 4, but I have some concerns about whether it could handle everything listed. At the moment I'm sort of considering the Orange Pi 5. I don't actually need it to be a single board computer at all - I'm just looking for energy efficiency with good enough hardware.

  • DaveF
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    April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    Merited by LoyceV (4), o_e_l_e_o (4), ABCbits (2)
     #2
    Yes, you can do everything like that on Umbrel on a RPi4. I am doing it now.

    IMO, you are better off getting something like this. [Not that actual one but a micro PC along those lines]

    https://www.amazon.com/Beelink-SEI10-i3-10110U-Computer-Performance/dp/B0BPBWTCQX?ref_=ast_sto_dp&th=1

    Running Debain along with mirrored drives. IF you are running your own LN node you don't want to have to deal with the recovery and everything else if 1 of the drives dies.
    Yes, I am running with no raid, BUT I know the risks and the cost of a 2nd drive is more then I have in my LN node so.....

    Not to mention, as software gets more bloaty the faster machine will just keep up better.

    AND it's got more power (not computing power just raw electrical power) so if you do want to plug in a bunch of USB devices for some reason you are not going to be getting the under volt warnings.

    If you want it to just work, Umbrel is nice in the fact that it just works.


    -Dave
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  • LoyceV
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    April 07, 2023, 07:10:43 PM
    Merited by o_e_l_e_o (4)
     #3
    Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 07, 2023, 02:58:20 PM
    My second question is whether anyone could suggest some hardware which would be most appropriate for this. My main considerations are low power usage and being powerful enough to run everything I've listed above. I had originally looked at a Raspberry Pi 4, but I have some concerns about whether it could handle everything listed. At the moment I'm sort of considering the Orange Pi 5. I don't actually need it to be a single board computer at all - I'm just looking for energy efficiency with good enough hardware.
    My usual answer would be: "get a laptop with low power CPU" (and 16 GB RAM), but after checking the Orange Pi 5 specs, that's consumes even less power. I just checked my spare laptop: it uses 8W while "being on" with the screen on the lowest brightness. That includes it's SSD, and it would be a tad less less with the screen off. I like laptops because they're cheap and come with build-in UPS. For your purpose, it would either need a large SSD, or hook up a cheap USB HDD and move the large data there.

    Unfortunately, I can't advice you on most of the software questions, as I only have experience with Bitcoin Core.
    ¡uʍop ǝpᴉsdn pɐǝɥ ɹnoʎ ɥʇᴉʍ ʎuunɟ ʞool no⅄

  • o_e_l_e_o (OP)
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    April 08, 2023, 06:46:10 AM
     #4
    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    Yes, you can do everything like that on Umbrel on a RPi4. I am doing it now.
    Pi 4 or Pi 4 Model B? Are you running a variety of things at once on it? Given I want to simplify everything on to one device, I'm looking at running all the bitcoin apps I mentioned as well as potentially streaming media to multiple devices simultaneously. Can your Raspberry Pi handle all that?

    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    IMO, you are better off getting something like this. [Not that actual one but a micro PC along those lines]
    I'd be happy to use something like that rather than a SBC, but a quick search seems the power draw on such devices will be anywhere between 5-10x more than a SBC. As I say, I'm looking for something with as little power draw as possible (for potential off grid use) while still being able to handle everything I've listed above, so I'd probably only buy a more power hungry device like that if it was absolutely necessary.

    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    Running Debain along with mirrored drives. IF you are running your own LN node you don't want to have to deal with the recovery and everything else if 1 of the drives dies.
    Good thinking. I already run RAID on my main storage, and I have some spare drives I could use to RAID everything except the blockchain itself.

    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    AND it's got more power (not computing power just raw electrical power) so if you do want to plug in a bunch of USB devices for some reason you are not going to be getting the under volt warnings.
    I wouldn't plan on ever doing this. I really just want something I can set up and forget about.

    Quote from: LoyceV on April 07, 2023, 07:10:43 PM
    My usual answer would be: "get a laptop with low power CPU" (and 16 GB RAM), but after checking the Orange Pi 5 specs, that's consumes even less power. I just checked my spare laptop: it uses 8W while "being on" with the screen on the lowest brightness. That includes it's SSD, and it would be a tad less less with the screen off. I like laptops because they're cheap and come with build-in UPS. For your purpose, it would either need a large SSD, or hook up a cheap USB HDD and move the large data there.
    Yeah, it seems an Orange Pi 5 at idle will consume <2W. If I was to use a laptop, I'd probably just disconnect the screen and any other hardware I don't need to reduce the power draw, though.

  • LoyceV
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    April 08, 2023, 07:02:03 AM
     #5
    Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 08, 2023, 06:46:10 AM
    If I was to use a laptop, I'd probably just disconnect the screen and any other hardware I don't need to reduce the power draw, though.
    No need to disconnect it, just set it up to turn off the screen when you close it. Mine is set up to suspend when closed, that's why I couldn't easily test it.
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  • NotATether
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    April 08, 2023, 08:36:25 AM
     #6
    Use Debian yes. That is the perfect distro to use when you don't want any moving (and broken) parts.  You'd be interested in Debian testing in particular, so you aren't locked out of dependencies for running newer software. Or you can go with Slackware which is also good but has got less prebuilt packages.

    Hardware, you'll definitely need at least 16G for running all that, so that definitely rules out the Pi. Definitely don't use an Umbrel either (unless it can meet the RAM and storage requirements), especially if you want to run a bunch of custom stuff.
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  • odolvlobo
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    April 08, 2023, 10:30:12 AM
    Merited by o_e_l_e_o (4)
     #7
    I have a RPi 4 with 8GB RAM running core, lnd, electrs, joinmarket yg, and btc-rpc-explorer. It runs a little warm and sometimes it is slow. I'm not sure it can handle much more than that, but I would love to hear from others who have tested its limits.
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  • LoyceV
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    April 08, 2023, 10:54:44 AM
     #8
    Quote from: odolvlobo on April 08, 2023, 10:30:12 AM
    I'm not sure it can handle much more than that, but I would love to hear from others who have tested its limits.
    Have you checked it's current resource consumption? I like gnome-system-monitor for a quick overview: if CPU and RAM aren't maxed out, it can probably handle more.
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  • ABCbits
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    April 08, 2023, 11:00:24 AM
    Merited by o_e_l_e_o (4)
     #9
    Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 08, 2023, 06:46:10 AM
    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    IMO, you are better off getting something like this. [Not that actual one but a micro PC along those lines]
    I'd be happy to use something like that rather than a SBC, but a quick search seems the power draw on such devices will be anywhere between 5-10x more than a SBC. As I say, I'm looking for something with as little power draw as possible (for potential off grid use) while still being able to handle everything I've listed above, so I'd probably only buy a more power hungry device like that if it was absolutely necessary.

    How about Intel NUC Kit (NUC Kit means you buy and place your own RAM and HDD/SDD and)? If you choose NUC Kit with low-watt CPU (15W TDP), disable turbo boost, slightly undervolt/clock the CPU and choose energy efficiency RAM and HDD/SSD, i expect it could use 20W or less during high load. As bonus, you don't need to worry about finding software which run on ARM CPU.

    Quote from: LoyceV on April 08, 2023, 10:54:44 AM
    Quote from: odolvlobo on April 08, 2023, 10:30:12 AM
    I'm not sure it can handle much more than that, but I would love to hear from others who have tested its limits.
    Have you checked it's current resource consumption? I like gnome-system-monitor for a quick overview: if CPU and RAM aren't maxed out, it can probably handle more.

    Also check average I/O usage with tools such as iotop.

  • RickDeckard
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    April 08, 2023, 11:06:43 AM
     #10
    How about purchase a second hand Apple Mac Mini i7? Looking at ebay I've found a deal[1] on a UK seller - for ~420 € + Shipping - that has the following specs:
    Quote
    • 2.3GHz quad-core Intel Core i7
    • 2TB SSD
    • 16GB of 1600MHz DDR3 memory
    From my limited tech knowledge, it seems that this machine would be more than suitable to run the previous mentioned setup and still be able to have room to grow. For 420 €, however, I'm not sure if you'll be able to find a similar machine brand new though. Perhaps browse the second market areas of your country to see if a better deal comes up?

    As far as software goes, have you considered perhaps running Unraid[2]? It has some community apps focused on cryptocurrency[3] and for the ones that you can't find in the store, I suppose you could install them on a Docket container?
    [1]https://www.ebay.com/itm/255950234328
    [2]https://unraid.net/
    [3]https://unraid.net/community/apps/c/crypto#r

  • DaveF
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    April 08, 2023, 01:36:20 PM
     #11
    Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 08, 2023, 06:46:10 AM
    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    Yes, you can do everything like that on Umbrel on a RPi4. I am doing it now.
    Pi 4 or Pi 4 Model B? Are you running a variety of things at once on it? Given I want to simplify everything on to one device, I'm looking at running all the bitcoin apps I mentioned as well as potentially streaming media to multiple devices simultaneously. Can your Raspberry Pi handle all that?

    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    IMO, you are better off getting something like this. [Not that actual one but a micro PC along those lines]
    I'd be happy to use something like that rather than a SBC, but a quick search seems the power draw on such devices will be anywhere between 5-10x more than a SBC. As I say, I'm looking for something with as little power draw as possible (for potential off grid use) while still being able to handle everything I've listed above, so I'd probably only buy a more power hungry device like that if it was absolutely necessary.

    None of of streaming sharing apps since I don't believe in running anything not BTC related on a device holding funds. But outside of that, yes I am running 2 explorers, electrum server, all the LN things and btcpay with no issues. It's s 4b.

    Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 08, 2023, 06:46:10 AM
    Quote from: DaveF on April 07, 2023, 03:53:22 PM
    Running Debain along with mirrored drives. IF you are running your own LN node you don't want to have to deal with the recovery and everything else if 1 of the drives dies.
    Good thinking. I already run RAID on my main storage, and I have some spare drives I could use to RAID everything except the blockchain itself.

    You would have to tweak umbrel to use the drives that are not attached to the RPi, and then you still have to have the LN stuff raided too.

    No argument that it's going to need a lot more power then an SBC but everything like this is going to be a bit of a tradeoff.
    Need more RAM for something with an SBC there is nothing you can do, with one of these micro PCs just buy another stick.

    There is also a bit of time = money involved. The micro PCs are going to be faster to handle certain things just due to raw speed and power.
    Don't get me wrong I love the SBC nodes: https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/5364113   I just have found at times their limitations to be a bit annoying.
    -Dave
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  • o_e_l_e_o (OP)
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    April 09, 2023, 07:51:21 AM
     #12
    Quote from: NotATether on April 08, 2023, 08:36:25 AM
    Hardware, you'll definitely need at least 16G for running all that, so that definitely rules out the Pi.
    Yeah, that's mainly why I was looking at Orange Pi, which has 16 GB and 32 GB models.

    Quote from: NotATether on April 08, 2023, 08:36:25 AM
    Definitely don't use an Umbrel either (unless it can meet the RAM and storage requirements), especially if you want to run a bunch of custom stuff.
    What do you mean by "an Umbrel"? Umbrel is software which can run on any device. I've not used it before but on reading about it seems like it would be perfect for my use case.

    Quote from: odolvlobo on April 08, 2023, 10:30:12 AM
    I have a RPi 4 with 8GB RAM running core, lnd, electrs, joinmarket yg, and btc-rpc-explorer. It runs a little warm and sometimes it is slow. I'm not sure it can handle much more than that, but I would love to hear from others who have tested its limits.
    This is very useful, thank you. As I suspected, a Raspberry Pi would struggle to handle the additional non-bitcoin stuff I'm looking to run on it as well. What OS are you using on your Pi?

    Quote from: ETFbitcoin on April 08, 2023, 11:00:24 AM
    How about Intel NUC Kit (NUC Kit means you buy and place your own RAM and HDD/SDD and)? If you choose NUC Kit with low-watt CPU (15W TDP), disable turbo boost, slightly undervolt/clock the CPU and choose energy efficiency RAM and HDD/SSD, i expect it could use 20W or less during high load. As bonus, you don't need to worry about finding software which run on ARM CPU.
    Not a bad idea at all. I'll look in to it a bit more.

    Quote from: DaveF on April 08, 2023, 01:36:20 PM
    Need more RAM for something with an SBC there is nothing you can do, with one of these micro PCs just buy another stick.
    True, but I figured an Orange Pi 5 with 16 GB (or even 32 GB) would be capable of running what I've listed above. But maybe I will go down the micro PC route...

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    April 09, 2023, 06:48:49 PM
     #13
    Be careful with some of the NUCs
    There are some running stripped down low power processors in order to save power (and make then cheaper to build) but they are painfully slow in terms of performance.

    Once again, from the I don't know where you are in the world but around here you can get an 11th gen i5 nuc sized unit for under $400 just add RAM and drive. BUT to get it with RAM 16GB + Drive 512GB + Windows (whatever) is only $450......


    https://www.amazon.com/NUC11PAHi5-Computer-Theater-Barebone%EF%BC%8CIntel-i5-1135G7/dp/B09MZ4V53Q

    vs

    https://www.amazon.com/NUC11PAHi5-Panther-i5-1135G7-Graphics-Kingston/dp/B09N1HXPQT

    Once you are out of the US Amazon world it's a different story.

    You can always use the drive for something else.

    -Dave
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  • odolvlobo
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    April 09, 2023, 06:52:36 PM
     #14
    Quote from: LoyceV on April 08, 2023, 10:54:44 AM
    Quote from: odolvlobo on April 08, 2023, 10:30:12 AM
    I'm not sure it can handle much more than that, but I would love to hear from others who have tested its limits.
    Have you checked it's current resource consumption? I like gnome-system-monitor for a quick overview: if CPU and RAM aren't maxed out, it can probably handle more.

    Good suggestion. I installed nmon.

    Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 09, 2023, 07:51:21 AM
    Quote from: odolvlobo on April 08, 2023, 10:30:12 AM
    I have a RPi 4 with 8GB RAM running core, lnd, electrs, joinmarket yg, and btc-rpc-explorer. It runs a little warm and sometimes it is slow. I'm not sure it can handle much more than that, but I would love to hear from others who have tested its limits.
    This is very useful, thank you. As I suspected, a Raspberry Pi would struggle to handle the additional non-bitcoin stuff I'm looking to run on it as well. What OS are you using on your Pi?

    I am running Raspian Lite 64-bit.

    nmon shows that most of the time it sits idle, but occasionally all 4 cores are maxed for a short period of time. I presume that is when a new block is received. RAM usage sits at about 99% and never reaches 100% (which seems suspicious).

    Becaus the CPU is maxing out only occasionally and because RAM is nearly at max, it seems to me that additional constant usage, such a media server, might become a problem, but additional intermittent usage would not.

    Also, it seems to me that a monitor, keyboard, and mouse will be more convenient as you add services. So, maybe a cheap laptop would be an option.
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  • LoyceV
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    April 10, 2023, 08:07:04 AM
     #15
    Quote from: odolvlobo on April 09, 2023, 06:52:36 PM
    RAM usage sits at about 99% and never reaches 100% (which seems suspicious).
    Is that including cache? If it is, it's normal: RAM is supposed to be used. If it's really used by all running programs, you need more RAM.
    To check:
    Code:
    free -h
                  total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
    Mem:           15Gi       1.2Gi       174Mi       0.0Ki        14Gi        14Gi
    Swap:         7.4Gi       456Mi
    The amount under "used" is what matters, and the amount under "available" is what's available while ignoring file cache.

    Quote
    Becaus the CPU is maxing out only occasionally and because RAM is nearly at max, it seems to me that additional constant usage, such a media server, might become a problem, but additional intermittent usage would not.
    Depending on what consumes the CPU, you can play with the niceness or even limit the number of cores a certain application can use to give for instance a media server a higher priority.
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  • o_e_l_e_o (OP)
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    April 10, 2023, 10:35:59 AM
     #16
    Hmm, decisions! I'm still tempted by the Orange Pi, but perhaps I'll see if I can pick up a second hand laptop on the cheap first (or even better, see if a friend has one they aren't using they could lend me for a while). I'll get it all set up and running everything I want, and see how it handles it and what the power usage is, and then decide if I want to keep that set up long term or if I want to commit to purchasing an Orange Pi.

    Given that I'm using a laptop and not a SBC at the moment, I'll probably just use Debian or Ubuntu since I'm familiar with them and I know I can get everything I want running on them without issue. I'll maybe experiment with Umbrel in the future.

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    April 10, 2023, 11:43:29 AM
     #17
    Starting with *I* use laptops for some crypro & node work.
    Many of them do not like being run 24/7/365 the CPU fans are smaller, they in general have less cooling and so on.
    Not saying that they can't do it, just that it's not optimal. NUCs although smaller tend to be designed around 24/7 operation.

    And, if you are going laptop look at the more business desktop replacement side then the consumer side. I do find that they are a bit better.

    -Dave
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  • LoyceV
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    April 10, 2023, 12:51:10 PM
     #18
    Quote from: DaveF on April 10, 2023, 11:43:29 AM
    Starting with *I* use laptops for some crypro & node work.
    Many of them do not like being run 24/7/365 the CPU fans are smaller, they in general have less cooling and so on.
    Not saying that they can't do it, just that it's not optimal.
    Although all true, I've done it for years Smiley Nowadays I don't keep my laptop on 24/7 anymore, but I used to. The "trick" is to get one that doesn't consume too much power, and clean the dust out of the fan on a regular basis. I'm also on my second fan now, and I have a third in stock.
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  • BlackHatCoiner
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    April 10, 2023, 07:44:12 PM
     #19
    I don't have much to recommend, I use Raspibolt. It provides what you want, and it's a good exercise if you're familiar with Linux. Don't run LND if you get a Raspberry Pi. Rather, go with c-lightning as it's more lightweight.

    If I were you, I'd probably listen to LoyceV and buy a new computer and avoid RPi altogether. Especially if I'll be running a reliable lightning node, the last thing that I want is from lightning daemon to stop frequently due to resource limits. At the moment, in my Raspibolt setup, I periodically notice Bitcoin daemon stopping. Probably CPU hits the ceiling.

    BTW, I have RPi 4 with 4 GB of RAM.

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    April 10, 2023, 09:20:32 PM
     #20
    Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on April 07, 2023, 02:58:20 PM
    With the death of some old hardware I was using to run one of my nodes plus a few other bits and pieces, I've decided I'd quite like to simplify my always-on home hardware down to a single device.

    With that in mind, I'm looking for both hardware and software recommendations for a standalone device capable of running the usual Bitcoin and Lightning nodes, but in addition to that, an Electrum server, an instance of mempool.space, a coinjoin server (be that JoinMarket or Samourai Dojo), and Bisq. I'd also like to potentially use this device to run a variety of non-bitcoin software, such as Pi-hole, personalized cloud storage, potentially a home media server, that sort of thing. Having looked in to it a bit, it seems that Umbrel might be the most straightforward way to do all this, and can run everything I've listed above except Bisq (although an app appears to be in the works).

    My first question is whether anyone who has experience with this kind of thing would disagree about using Umbrel and would suggest just running something like Debian (or any other Linux distro)?

    My second question is whether anyone could suggest some hardware which would be most appropriate for this. My main considerations are low power usage and being powerful enough to run everything I've listed above. I had originally looked at a Raspberry Pi 4, but I have some concerns about whether it could handle everything listed. At the moment I'm sort of considering the Orange Pi 5. I don't actually need it to be a single board computer at all - I'm just looking for energy efficiency with good enough hardware.

    I'd build a modular system consisting of a processing unit (Rasberry, Intel NUC, laptop or whatever) and a NAS or SAN containing several drives. Pros: easy to upgrade just the processing part, RAID backup, space for more drives available (compared to small enclosures with just 1 nvme or ssd drive), more scalable etc.
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