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Topic: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax (Read 509 times)

Eddie Sockittome (OP)

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Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 12:09:44 AM

I've always wondered whether giving away Bitcoin randomly to addresses might be a way some ultra-rich avoid estate taxes, someday.

Let's say Satoshi wanted to avoid the estate tax, set to go back to 45% on all amounts over $6.8 million beginning in 2025. Assuming he is alive, that would be quite the tax bill. Government would be salivating at the prospect.

Is it theoretically possible if you were Satoshi to just give away $17,000 worth of Bitcoin randomly to 4 million addresses, utilizing the legal annual per-person gift tax loophole? Would such an event even be workable if Satoshi (or anyone else) wanted to give away $17k each randomly? Could the choosing of addresses be achieved by a computer program? Would there be any way to know if the incoming .25 Bitcoin per giveaway was legit and not some scam if you saw it waiting for you?

A relative of mine gave away all money to charity above the estate tax limit to avoid the estate tax a few years back when he passed. But with Bitcoin, it seems there would be interesting wrinkles possible as an alternative to formal charities.

I suspect someday a billionaire might try something just like this to avoid the estate tax and spread the money out, instead of paying the government, while keeping some degree of anonymity for the receiver and sender.

Thoughts?

thecodebear

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 01:58:50 AM

Why would you give away money just to avoid taxes? If you give away money to avoid taxes, you lose MORE money because you gave away 100% of that money instead of only losing whatever the tax % would be lol.

This idea makes no sense.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 02:44:42 AM

I think the key word in your story of your relative is he passed. I dont think any alive person would willingly give away their assets and money just to avoid some tax. Lets be honest, There are plenty of ways billionaires do to avoid tax without having to cut on their spending or money in general.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 03:37:17 AM

It's better to pay taxes than to divide your assets among a few obscure people. I feel obligated to pay taxes, because with taxes my country can develop better. Yes, there may be doubts about the management of tax money due to corruption, but I'm sure that's not all. It will only create new problems if you don't obey the country's rules. Some famous people in the world tried to avoid taxes in various ways but in the end they became fugitives from the state. Even if caught it seems that the fines will be more severe.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 04:01:29 AM

This is Tax evasion and it's wrong.
Taxes are supposed to be used by the government to finance the country and if everybody start evading what do you think would happen to the economy of the country.
Besides this isn't really a smart method to evade tax.
The cost outweighs the benefit
Paying tax is way cheaper than this.
We should be thinking about how to improve the income generation itself rather than how to reduce necessary expenses.
Tax levied on Bitcoin held more than a year is lower than ones that are been traded.
So an holder would find paying the Tax more acceptable and less strenuous than evading.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 04:48:27 AM

Quote from: Eddie Sockittome on March 31, 2024, 12:09:44 AM

Thoughts?

I think you are a person who doesn't have much money but has a lot ideas about what rich people would do.

So, let's say you bought Bitcoins 100 at $1 and now with your great idea to avoid paying taxes you donate them when they are worth $70,000. The tax authorities in your country will charge you capital gains tax for 6.999.900 (assuming a moderate rate of 20%, you would have to pay 1.399.980). And besides, you would have run out of Bitcoins, so I don't know what you were going to be able to pay with.

Quote from: Eddie Sockittome on March 31, 2024, 12:09:44 AM

A relative of mine gave away all money to charity above the estate tax limit to avoid the estate tax a few years back when he passed. But with Bitcoin, it seems there would be interesting wrinkles possible as an alternative to formal charities.

In your friend's example, if what he donated was money, capital gains tax does not apply because there is no capital gain, but with Bitcoin it does.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 05:16:19 AM

It's a fallacy that you thinks the government would believe these 4 Million addresses are controlled by 4 Million people. If Satoshi sell his coins and he use bank account, it means the government will know how much the money that Satoshi have. It won't be a problem if Satoshi didn't buy lambo or luxury stuffs and choose to live below the income tax or capital gains tax, he don't have to split his coins to 4 Million addresses.

Received Bitcoin as a reward or giveaway is taxable.

Quote from: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/taxpayers-should-continue-to-report-all-cryptocurrency-digital-asset-income

Received digital assets resulting from a reward or award;

Charity or non profit organization is non taxable, as long as they met all the requirements.

Quote from: https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/exempt-organization-types

Charitable Organizations

Organizations organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, educational, or other specified purposes and that meet certain other requirements are tax exempt under Internal Revenue Code Section 501(c)(3).

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Kruw

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 05:47:48 AM

Quote from: Ambatman on March 31, 2024, 04:01:29 AM

This is Tax evasion and it's wrong.
Taxes are supposed to be used by the government to finance the country and if everybody start evading what do you think would happen to the economy of the country.

Taxation is theft, so tax evasion is not wrong. The economy would get better if everyone was able to evade taxes because then they would have more money to spend on the things they need and want.

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Eddie Sockittome (OP)

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 06:05:31 AM

Ummm, it is legal to "gift" up to $17,000 per year, every year, to as many people as one likes, without limit. It is not "wrong" and it is certainly not "tax evasion."

Several commentators here need to learn the tax code better. Millions of families use the $17,000 gift exclusion every year. It is just that no one has tried to use it to randomly give $17,000 to millions of people. But it is perfectly legal. In fact, my wife and I have in our trust to give $17,000 (adjusted upwards by the IRS every year) to over 100 people upon our death, if the estate exclusion limit continues to be reduced.

And yes, I thought I was clear, but this would most likely happen AFTER passing, not while alive. The estate tax does not apply while alive. Finally, the rich routinely give money above the estate tax exclusion to charity to avoid estate tax. So what I am asking about simply replaces charity with gifts to random people.

So, now that this is clear (sheesh, it was not that hard), is there any way someone like Satoshi could set up such a plan? Or does the ledger and addresses and the way it is all set up make such an idea impossible? Thanks.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 06:14:39 AM

#10

Quote

Is it theoretically possible if you were Satoshi to just give away $17,000 worth of Bitcoin randomly to 4 million addresses, utilizing the legal annual per-person gift tax loophole?

What is this estate tax you are talking about? Is this a tax that will be imposed in the USA in 2025? Is Satoshi Nakamoto an American? What if he isn't American and doesn't have US citizenship? Do you think that Satoshi Nakamoto's Bitcoins are under US jurisdiction?
Giving away 17K worth of BTC to 4 million addresses seems like a really dumb idea. The rich people in the USA are creating charity foundations and putting their financial assets there, because charity foundations have some tax benefits. Maybe Satoshi Nakamoto should do the same thing, if he's an American and he's still alive. I don't believe that his BTC will ever be taxed, though.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 06:27:06 AM

#11

Quote from: Kruw on March 31, 2024, 05:47:48 AM

Taxation is theft, so tax evasion is not wrong. The economy would get better if everyone was able to evade taxes because then they would have more money to spend on the things they need and want.

What's the essence of having a charger when you don't even have a phone to use it on.
Government are corrupt, misuse tax payers money but the concept was introduced to finance the nation.
If everybody evade Tax what do you think would be of the country?

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 06:30:42 AM

#12

Quote from: Ambatman on March 31, 2024, 06:27:06 AM

If everybody evade Tax what do you think would be of the country?

The country would obviously be better since people would have more money to spend on the things they need and want.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 06:37:12 AM

#13

Honestly that would be a dream come true for us

But if you think about it, why is it that tax evasion
(or any crime for that matter) is easier for
those with money. While those with not much salary
are forced to pay taxes with nothing to do but pay taxes.

The world is truly unfair

CODE200

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 06:47:00 AM

#14

If the state doesn't know that you've got bitcoin and the family that will be left behind by that amount of money won't declare it and they're smart enough to not spend it all at once or even be extravagant about it then they're probably not going to pay any tax on it.

Quote from: Kruw on March 31, 2024, 06:30:42 AM

Quote from: Ambatman on March 31, 2024, 06:27:06 AM

If everybody evade Tax what do you think would be of the country?

The country would obviously be better since people would have more money to spend on the things they need and want.

That's a stupid statement and I don't think you even know how tax works, tax if used correctly and not being pocketed by corrupt politicians, it easily makes public transportation and any other public stuff that you can think of that needs building and has a need for funding, it's definitely going to be improved and your way of life would be more convenient, without taxes, there's a lot of things that's operated by the government would collapse, like their workforce as a major one that would definitely be the most affected. As much as you want to sound like an anarchist by not paying your taxes but you're actually damaging more people in the bigger picture when that's how you want the things to go.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 07:12:14 AM

#15

I think it all sums up when Bitcoin was already sold and converted into fiat. As long as it is not yet in fiat then there is no obligation yet to pay for taxes.

And the term usually used for Bitcoin profits is "income tax" and that is why whether you give away your bitcoins or not, the measurement and basis will be on how much the profit you have made from holding to selling.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 07:16:37 AM

#16

Quote from: thecodebear on March 31, 2024, 01:58:50 AM

You know? Im having the same question as yours, and one more thing, why should we avoid tax if we have a lot of money to hold? Let's just pay correctly, at least that way we can say that the money we receive here in the cryptoworld really went through the legal process. What sane person would give away bitcoin to avoid paying proper taxes? because no matter where we look, you will be taxed no matter what amount you have, it's much better not to give it away and just pay the right tax.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 07:18:04 AM

#17

You are so focused on Satoshi's bag and the tax, but not about the country he lives in, as if this tax thing is generally affecting all countries, where I am from we don't pay taxes, unless we start a big business on the government lands, schools, casinos and others.

Having Bitcoin is my business, I risk my money on something that may swim everything away some day, why the hell will the government want me to pay tax on only of this? I will gladly leave such a country and move to another.

Now, as per what you said in your post, who will be stupid enough to give out all their money so that they can evade tax payments? They will lose the whole money and thats dumb, why not use part of the money to settle the tax and keep the rest?

Nakamoto might not be an American citizen.

Even if he is, he will remain unknown till the end of time.

But something deep inside me believes that Nakamoto is far from being an American.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 09:16:34 AM

#18

I don't see why I have to give away $17k worth of bitcoin to random addresses, when your bitcoin is in your cold storage. How would government know that you have bitcoin if you did not keep it in a centralized exchange. The best thing is to give your bitcoin to your heir when you want to pass on.

You do this by teaching them how bitcoin work, and even open noncustodial wallet for them, and put little amount of bitcoin for them to understand how to transfer bitcoin from one address to the other. Are you buying an estate or a yatch, that you will convert a huge amount of bitcoin to fiat which will bring people attention or the government, to the extend that they will tell you to pay tax.

When using bitcoin for payment of whatever you are purchasing, if you are lucky, you can pay with your bitcoin, to the trader if he accepts, and nobody would know what happened. If I want to give away, I will give it to charity and not some random bitcoin addresses that I don't know if it bongs to a scammer or the government. Some charity organizations accepts donations in bitcoin. It is only fiat that can be done that way. After all your relation used fiat and not bitcoin.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 11:45:28 AM

#19

The person giving the money will still be at a loss (unless they are really in on charity). If you send the amount equivalent of the tax to different wallet and then you want to take out what you have left, you still have to pay tax (even if its been reduced). So at the end of the day, you gave out the money you would have paid in tax and still paid tax for what was left. But like I said, if the person is in on charity then it isnt a big deal because theyll gladly share the money and pay for the reduced tax regardless.

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Re: Give Away Bitcoin To Avoid Estate Tax

March 31, 2024, 01:21:38 PM

#20

I would sure wish my address is one of the lucky ones to receive such free BTC as gift because its owner wants to evade paying tax.
The idea of cryptocurrencies didn't include taxing the government at first until now where it is a mandatory action to be adhered to by those who own cryptocurrencies.

Am sure if such a rich man has a hardware wallet, the government wouldn't even know it belongs to them because he can just transfer or deposit in a hot wallet before use and it may not even be up to $10k to be flagged.
With the advent of the ETF am sure the taxing system cannot be avoided because it is simply like buying shares on the exchange market and as an asset that is centralized and trackable to the owner.
One common way that one can use to avoid tax is to close out trade positions that have recorded losses, and also keep positions that have made profits, all more than one year. This strategy will ensure that the profit will receive long-term capital gains treatment, lowering ones tax liability.

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