Bitcoin Takeover Podcast, S16 E2: Liam Eagen

Liam Eagen is the founding cryptographer of Alpen Labs – a team that focuses on building ZK rollups on top of Bitcoin, to provide extended financial services and smart contract features.

However, Liam holds many other academic merits: he is a co-author of the Shielded Client Side Validation proposal for Bitcoin privacy (Shielded CSV, https://eprint.iacr.org/2025/068.pdf), and he is also responsible for contributing to Bulletproofs (used in Monero to conceal the amounts being sent) and Full Chaim Membership Proofs (FCMP++, the upcoming Monero upgrade that replaces ring signatures).

In this episode, we talk about his work in the space and why collaboration across open source money projects is necessary.

Listen to the conversation: https://bitcoin-takeover.com/audio/index.php?name=2025-01-09_s16_e2_liam_eagen_on_crypto_graphy_research_-_09.01.2025_19.09.mp3
Watch the interview: https://www.youtube.com/live/RZIk-4Jrv6g?si=zlSLNXsEnmwxzIYQ

Interview time stamps:

Introducing Liam (00:00:25)
Shielded Client-Side Validation (00:01:53)
Challenges in Bitcoin Development (00:05:36)
The Soft Fork Independence of Shielded CSV (00:06:31)
Introduction to OP_CAT (00:06:31)
Opinions on Bitcoin Covenant Proposals (00:07:06)
Integer Arithmetic in Bitcoin (00:09:26)
Alpen Labs and Their Projects (00:12:23)
Optimistic vs. Optimistically Verified zk Rollups (00:15:05)
Data Availability Issues in Rollups (00:16:02)
Zcash and Mobile Wallets (00:21:03)
Philosophical Debate on Bitcoin's Future (00:22:21)
Comparing Lightning Network and Shielded CSV (00:25:40)
Layer Two Labs andDrive Chain (00:28:52)
Sidechains vs. Rollups (00:29:55)
Citrea and DeFi Potential (00:31:14)
Rollups' Data Handling (00:32:50)
Advantages of Sidechains (00:33:56)
Drivechains Overview (00:35:10)
Citrea vs. Alpen Labs (00:37:13)
Collaboration in Bitcoin L2 Space (00:38:43)
Existential Question on Bitcoin Privacy (00:40:02)
Political Capital and Bitcoin's Future (00:42:52)
Universal Truths in Bitcoin Community (00:44:04)
Resistance to Change in Bitcoin (00:45:29)
Testing Timeframes for Bitcoin Changes (00:50:11)
Risks of Unknown Unknowns (00:51:59)
Risks Beyond Bitcoin Changes (00:56:34)
Indistinguishable Obfuscation (00:57:37)
Challenges of Indistinguishable Obfuscation (00:58:49)
Incentives for Bitcoin Development (00:59:42)
Collaboration in Crypto Communities (01:01:44)
Views on Monero, Zcash, Litecoin (01:03:27)
Litecoin's Scalability Features (01:04:49)
Centralization in Rollups (01:06:25)
Bulletproofs and Membership Proofs (01:10:31)
Bulletproofs++ Overview (01:13:26)
Scalability of Bulletproofs++ (01:22:08)
Full Chain Membership Proofs in Monero (01:24:54)
Nullifier Mechanism (01:27:55)
Challenges of Implementing Privacy (01:29:32)
Concerns About Hidden Inflation (01:32:19)
Inflation Bugs in Cryptocurrencies (01:33:32)
Bitcoin Block Size Increase Debate (01:36:50)
Decentralization vs. Block Size (01:39:03)
Proof of Stake in Bitcoin? (01:43:35)
Long-term Sustainability of Mining (01:46:33)
Concerns About Bitcoin's Supply Cap (01:47:36)
Is The Future Multi-chain? (01:51:30)
Stablecoins Aren’t Stable (01:54:20)
Future of Bitcoin (01:55:19)
Market Dynamics and Government Influence (01:57:07)
Privacy and Scalability Concerns (01:57:44)
Activation Challenges (01:58:34)
Centralization Issues (01:59:36)
Community Dynamics (02:00:27)
Closing Remarks (02:02:02)
Keeping Up with Liam (02:02:38)

Cover image:

The issue with others is that the temptation to give up power (which includes money) is too strong for them. It was actually a rigorous testing to know true "cyberpunks" or principled ones. Only very few survived (and will continue to survive) the testing or whatever is thrown at them.
To scale through the test you have to hold strongly to what is right for Bitcoin/crypto regardless of what happens to you. For example no amount of temptation should make you attempt to hijack Bitcoin and make yourself a king, with no one to question your decision whether right or wrong.
Fortunately,  Bitcoin has been hardened to scale through any takeover attempt.  It will remain strong and extremely difficult to capture. But it's not going to be so with most networks.


I do not believe a potential god protocol for the centralized world (the matrix) will be truely decentralized. Infact, it will never be. No one can question the authority of the developers or coders of the system whether good or bad. They will be made to just trust. The only solution is a parallel system based on good/fair rules that include permissionlessness, community consensus/governance, decentralization, transparency, immutablity, trustlessness, "proof-of-work", reputation etc.

Bitcoin Takeover Podcast, S16 E3: Charlie Shrem on his Digital Gold Project

This one is probably one of the most memorable interviews I've done over the last 6 months... for all the wrong reasons! Charlie Shrem, a well-known Bitcoin OG who served as CEO of BitInstant and then became a martyr when he went to jail for defending BTC's fungibility as money, announced that he's working on a new cryptocurrency project called Digital Gold. I was intrigued by it only because Charlie was involved... otherwise, there wasn't anything interesting about it: just a fork of Bitcoin Core which adopts a Proof of Stake consensus mechanism that's imported from BlackCoin, is 100% premined, and gets distributed according to a "level" system that sounds an awful lot like a pyramid scheme.

The goal of this Digital Gold is to create a "Fork Knox" for bitcoin. Because essentially, every participant must buy DGD tokens from the central issuer using their bitcoins. Then this BTC would get held in a reserve that somehow gives the whole Digital Gold system value... except that there's no redemption mechanism to get BTC back in the event that DGD goes to the Moon. Also, this new token is not listed on any exchange whatsoever, so trading can only happen if you find an internet stranger who's willing to buy or sell like it's 2010.

Very strange situation, but I tried to stay professional and ask all the right questions. Charlie Shrem agreed to stay for about an hour, but excused himself and left after 47 minutes. The other guy involved in the conversation, the "Digital Gold Jedi", answered questions for another hour. The conversation became heated at parts, as the language used in order to promote the project was dubious: he implied that people don't really "buy" DGD tokens because there is no guarantee that they will receive them. Essentially, the system must level up by adding an arbitrary amount of nodes, so that the new participants can have their coins released (aka "mined") from an escrow. So people can buy DGD, but maybe there won't be enough new nodes to support the level up so they will never get their tokens... but the BTC they send is not refundable. On the other hand, users can just run the Digital Gold software on 1000 new computers and generate a fake decentralization metric which boosts the level up system. There is no consequence for turning off these nodes: so if I use all 3 of my computers to turn level up the system and turn them all off forever, what counts is just the fleeting presence.

From the bottom to the top, it's a poorly-designed mess which is filled with loopholes and is probably fuelled by greed of making more bitcoins. And I'm not one to judge whether or not this is legit... but I do question the legitimacy of a lazy copy of Bitcoin which doesn't do anything interesting from a technological point of view. It's no Ethereum or Zcash to push the limits of what's possible on Bitcoin and do some experimentation with new features in contracts and/or privacy. Digital Gold's only wallet is a fork of Bitcoin Core which Digital Gold Jedi claims took more than 10.000 hour of engineering work to build. The claim is pretty ridiculous, as even an LLM like ChatGPT can build something more interesting with only a couple of prompts.

Once again: under any other circumstances, I wouldn't have paid attention to this project. But Charlie Shrem's involvement has made it interesting, to say the least. I've asked my questions, I made sure I don't draw any conclusions and let the listeners think for themselves instead, and the short-term result has been amazing: a couple of weeks after this interview, Charlie Shrem's name was removed from the website and the digitalgold.com domain appears to be up for sale. Maybe that I didn't cause the project's demise, but I like to think that some of my questions definitely raised some concerns within the team.

I think that this episode is relevant in the context of trying to figure out whether or not a project is legit. It should serve as a guide for asking the right questions and thinking critically in the face of something that sounds too good to be true at the surface, but doesn't accomplish anything original or useful. And yes, I do follow the team's progress at this URL (in the meantime, Digital Gold Jedi changed his identity and now goes by the name of John Gotts): https://youtube.com/live/6hbnozFEBWg

Watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtube.com/live/6hbnozFEBWg?feature=share
Listen to the interview: https://bitcoin-takeover.com/audio/index.php?name=2025-01-14_s16_e3_charlie_shrem_on_digital_gold_-_14.01.2025_01.41.mp3

This interview's time stamps:

ntroducing Charlie Shrem & Digital Gold Jedi (John Gotts) (00:00:48)
Is Charlie Still Bullish on Bitcoin? (00:01:40)
From Bitcoin to Digital Gold (00:02:05)
Details of the Digital Gold Project (00:04:52)
Stability and Value Preservation? (00:05:37)
Community Engagement and User Growth (00:08:34)
Comparison with BitTorrent (00:09:01)
There Are Thousands of Digital Golds (00:14:28)
Unique Features of the Digital Gold Project (00:15:08)
Which Wallets and Exchanges Support Digital Gold? (00:17:05)
Community Engagement and Validation (00:17:55)
Initial Feedback and Expectations (00:18:50)
Purchasing Process and Coin Distribution (00:19:26)
Coin Withdrawal Mechanics (00:20:15)
Network Growth and Distribution (00:21:02)
Exchanges and Market Dynamics (00:22:57)
Stablecoin vs. Price Speculation (00:23:25)
Price Determination Mechanism (00:24:27)
Infrastructure and Value Creation (00:25:09)
Market Dynamics and Adoption (00:26:06)
Mining vs. Market Factors (00:26:21)
Coin Purchase Process Clarification (00:27:13)
Community Participation and Evangelism (00:29:20)
Address Reuse Concerns (00:31:16)
Price Validation by Community (00:32:38)
Selling Coins Among Users (00:34:31)
Community Exchange Challenges (00:34:43)
Decentralized Exchange Considerations (00:35:44)
Arbitrage Opportunities (00:36:00)
Side Shift (00:36:43)
Treasury and Bitcoin Ownership (00:37:42)
Concerns About Bitcoin Reserve Safety (00:38:00)
Community Trust and Auditing (00:39:26)
Charlie Shrem’s Long-Term Vision for Digital Gold (00:40:28)
Self-Custody and User Understanding (00:41:51)
Value of DGB vs. Bitcoin (00:42:07)
Name Change Story (00:44:01)
Treasury Transparency and Auditing (00:45:24)
Future of Auditing in Crypto (00:46:29)
Bullish Prediction for Digital Gold (00:47:18)
Understanding User Risks and Backup Solutions (00:51:51)
Digital Gold Experiment (00:52:56)
Challenges of User Adoption (00:54:10)
Centralization Concerns (00:57:42)
Node Operation Incentives (00:58:16)
Concept of Proof of Participation (01:00:55)
Contribution vs. Purchase (01:06:52)
Intrinsic Value and Market Parity (01:09:07)
Discussion on Gold and Currency Value (01:10:04)
Clarifying Payment Terminology (01:10:35)
Contributions, Not Investments (01:11:57)
White Paper Availability (01:12:44)
Smart Currency Concept (01:15:20)
Comparison with Bitcoin Cash (01:15:49)
Participation in the Network (01:16:40)
Digital Gold vs Terra Luna (01:17:47)
Claiming Coins Without Purchase (01:19:16)
Distribution Model Fairness (01:21:04)
Becoming a Staker (01:23:25)
Node Connection and Validation (01:25:03)
Impact of Node Outages (01:27:25)
Core Staking Nodes Explained (01:28:09)
Government Threats to Network (01:29:10)
Initial Market Cap and Podcast Launch (01:30:25)
Security Team: How Does It Get Paid? (01:32:44)
Bug Bounty and Security Issues (01:36:00)
Distribution of Coins and Participation (01:37:29)
Peer-to-Peer Transactions (01:39:33)
Transparency of Coin Holdings (01:41:51)
Labeling The Team’s Staking Wallets (01:42:23)
First Dancers (01:45:31)
Charlie Shrem’s Role in Digital Gold (01:45:39)
The Litmus Test (01:46:03)
Importance of Charlie's Endorsement (01:46:31)
Highlighting Charlie's Character (01:47:31)
Addressing Potential Concerns (01:48:03)
User-Friendly Exchange Integration (01:48:42)
Future Selling of Coins (01:49:44)
Saying Goodbye (01:50:13)

Graphics for this interview:

Bitcoin Takeover Podcast, S16 E4: John Light on ZK Tech to Scale Bitcoin & Make it Private

John Light is one of the individuals who popularized ZK rollups in the context of Bitcoin. Originally, this kind of layer two was designed for Ethereum by using Zcash tech for data compression and optional privacy. But thanks to his research, Bitcoin can also get optimistically verified rollups and sovereign rollups (both of which are defined and described on bitcoinrollups.io: https://www.bitcoinrollups.io/the-basics

Previously, John Light has appeared on the Bitcoin Takeover podcast as an independent researcher, in a group interview which also included Super Testnet and Alexey Zamyatin: https://youtu.be/N2AR0mMJMho?si=NBWDdxQBex9467X9

In the meantime, he has joined Alpen Labs as technical product manager and he's trying to turn all the research he's conducted into something that truly helps Bitcoin scale. In a nutshell, Alpen Labs (alongside other ZK rollup projects such as Citrea) is building a financial layer which enables more advanced smart contract features. Users will be able to issue and borrow stablecoins against their BTC, while every parameter is controlled by a user-defined contract. There is no institutional middleman, everything consists of code. Of course, many other use cases which already exist on Ethereum can get built on Bitcoin via ZK rollups. The best part about it is that this second layer inherits the security from Bitcoin's base layer – which technically makes transaction finality much more powerful than Ethereum's.

Throughout this interview, we also spoke about the power of BitVM and what Bitcoin maximalism is really about.

Watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtube.com/live/ac8hsqpZY-A?feature=share
Listen to the interview: https://bitcoin-takeover.com/audio/index.php?name=2025-01-16_s16_e4_john_light_on_zk_rollups_bitvm_alpen_labs_strata_-_16.01.2025_18.07.mp3

This interview's time stamps:

Introducing John Light (00:00:50)
John's Work at Alpen Labs (00:01:35)
Strata: A New zk Optimistic Rollup (00:02:35)
Understanding BitVM (00:02:52)
BitVM 1 vs BitVM 2 (00:03:14)
Challenge and Response Mechanism to Prevent Cheating (00:05:03)
BitVM vs Lightning Network (00:06:19)
Security of BitVM 2 (00:07:26)
Soft Forks and BitVM (00:13:01)
Potential Improvements from Soft Forks (00:14:06)
Citrea vs. Strata ZK Rollup Tech (00:15:58)
Side Chains vs. Rollups (00:17:46)
Data Availability in Rollups (00:20:44)
Transaction Fees for Bitcoin Miners (00:23:19)
Token Requirement for Rollups (00:26:25)
Comparing Rollups to Counterparty (00:27:06)
Drivechains and Their Potential (00:29:35)
Focus on Rollups (00:30:49)
Data Availability Challenges (00:31:42)
Increasing Bitcoin Block Size (00:32:52)
Importance of Data Availability (00:33:19)
Block Size Limit Increase (00:36:02)
Layer Two Solutions (00:37:46)
Bitcoin Maximalism Defined (00:40:19)
Vitalik's Definition of Maximalism (00:41:33)
Personal Views on Altcoins (00:46:25)
Zcash vs. Monero (00:47:51)
Zcash's Privacy Advantages (00:50:36)
Temporary Nature of Altcoins (00:51:07)
Zcash as a Scientific Experiment (00:52:32)
Consolidation of Currencies (00:56:43)
Zcash's ZK Technology in Bitcoin (00:57:35)
Zcash vs. Shielded CSV (00:58:15)
Privacy in Rollups (00:59:44)
EVM’s Popularity (01:00:50)
Inspiration from Bitcoin Inscriptions (01:04:00)
Security of Bitcoin Holdings (01:17:37)
Full Node Projects and User Adoption (01:22:01)
BitSeed's Hardware Evolution (01:23:35)
Bitcoin Node Legislation (01:26:31)
Government Involvement in Bitcoin (01:27:08)
Concerns about Strategic Bitcoin Reserves (01:27:49)
Natural Evolution of Government Bitcoin Holdings (01:29:31)
Future of Bitcoin Development (01:30:28)
Incentives for Bitcoin Expansion (01:31:01)
Challenges of Bitcoin Solutions (01:32:36)
Product Management in Bitcoin Development (01:34:02)
User Enthusiasm for Layer Twos (01:36:16)
Potential for New Bitcoin Solutions (01:37:25)
Cultural Shift in Bitcoin Discussions (01:40:37)
Engagement in Technical Discussions (01:42:10)
Following John Light's Work (01:42:53)

Graphics for this interview:

Bitcoin Takeover Podcast, S16 E6: Super Testnet on Monero vs Lightning Privacy

Super Testnet is quite a character: one of the most colorful personalities around, and someone who's been building Bitcoin tools for many years. More recently, he started a campaign in which he's trying to prove that Lightning Network is much better than Monero when it comes to privacy (if used correctly, which most users don't). So I've invited him on my podcast to talk about his reasoning, which mostly revolves around the superior sender privacy: Monero's ring signatures, which use 16 decoys, are weaker in comparison with the onion-like routing system that can be found in Lightning. But there's also something to be said about the data being collected by validating nodes and the footprint that every transaction leaves: in Monero, it's obscured by cryptography that may or may not get cracked in the future; on Lightning, transaction history is stored by the parties involved in a transaction – while routing nodes can't know anything specific.

If you're on either side of the debate (Monero bull or Lightning enthusiast), you will definitely find an interesting point of view to learn. Also, if you don't know too much about the types of privacy involved in a Bitcoin transaction (sender, receiver, amount, network-level), then this is a great opportunity for you to learn!


Listen to the interview on your favorite streaming platform: https://bitcoin-takeover.com/audio/index.php?name=2025-02-04_s16_e6_super_testnet_on_monero_vs_lightning_network_privacy_-_04.02.2025_20.16.mp3
Watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtube.com/live/VlP6AjM28hY?feature=share

This interview's timestamps:

Introducing Super Testnet (00:00:48)
Lightning on Dark Web Markets (00:01:08)
Lightning Network Privacy Features (00:01:40)
Analysis of Sender and Receiver Privacy (00:02:02)
Onion Routing Explanation (00:03:07)
Invoice Privacy Comparison (00:04:36)
Transaction Visibility in Monero? (00:06:08)
Information Storage in Lightning (00:07:12)
Liquidity and Large Transactions (00:08:10)
Amount Privacy in Lightning (00:09:34)
Private Channels in Lightning (00:11:25)
Routing Nodes and Privacy (00:13:59)
How Monero Transactions Work (00:15:08)
Encryption Standards in Monero (00:16:01)
Recipient Privacy in Monero (00:17:54)
Privacy Tech (00:18:52)
Network Level Privacy (00:19:02)
Tor Usage in Lightning Network (00:19:44)
Routing Node Configuration (00:20:07)
Dandelion++ (00:21:00)
IP Address Association in Lightning (00:21:22)
Encryption in Lightning Transactions (00:22:50)
Monero's Network Privacy by Default (00:23:18)
Chainalysis Video Reference (00:23:40)
Remote Procedure Call Limitations (00:24:38)
Custodial Solutions and Privacy (00:26:31)
Privacy Advantages of Mints (00:28:08)
Full Chain Membership Proofs (00:29:53)
Encrypted Senders in Lightning (00:31:52)
Comparison with Zcash (00:32:30)
Barriers for Lightning Network Adoption (00:34:05)
Exploring XMR Bazaar (00:35:02)
SideShift (00:36:03)
Paul Sztorc's Core Untouched Soft Work (00:37:14)
Drivechains Activation (00:38:27)
Ossification of Bitcoin (00:41:09)
Concerns About Ossification (00:41:51)
ZK Rollups Discussion (00:42:35)
Citrea’s Zero Knowledge Proof Rollup (00:45:05)
Community Concerns on Lightning Network (00:48:34)
Chainalysis and Dandelion Protocol (00:50:23)
LSP and KYC Privacy Issues (00:52:39)
Receiver Privacy in Lightning Network (00:53:28)
Phoenix Wallet Setup (00:54:15)
Sender Privacy Concerns (00:55:30)
View Key and Monero (00:57:10)
Chainalysis and Lightning Network (01:02:08)
Monero Tracing Capabilities (01:06:01)
User Input Error in Privacy (01:07:02)
The Lightning Network vs. Monero Privacy (01:10:56)
Conference Plans in Romania (01:12:00)
Monero Payment Channel Network (01:14:36)
Full Chain Membership Proofs (01:15:21)
Lightning Network and Sender Encryption (01:15:32)
Stablecoins and Lightning Network (01:16:22)
Monero Transaction Validation (01:18:05)
Zero Knowledge Proofs in Monero (01:18:56)
Bitcoin's Zero Knowledge Rollups (01:20:31
Rollups and Bitcoin Scalability (01:21:04)
Trojan Horse Concept in Bitcoin (01:23:46)
Tornado Cash vs. Coinjoin (01:25:36)
Coin Pool on Bitcoin (01:27:34)
Darknet Market Listings (01:29:13)
Nostr and Classified Ads (01:29:34)
Privacy in Darknet Transactions (01:30:50)
Risks of Direct Payments (01:31:54)
Exploring Shopstr Listings (01:32:43)
Comparing Shopstr and XMR Bazaar (01:35:00)
Privacy Improvements in Shopstr (01:37:13)
Lightning Network Developments (01:44:42)
KYC and Banking Issues (01:48:24)
Introduction to Bank Privacy Issues (01:48:59)
Financial Regulations in Romania (01:49:48)
Advice on Relocation for Financial Privacy (01:50:12)
Intrusiveness of Banking Regulations (01:51:03)
Personal Experience with Banking Scrutiny (01:51:34)
Living Arrangements (01:52:13)
Lightning Network Implementations Privacy (01:53:16)
Privacy Implications of Lightning Wallets (01:54:03)
User-Friendliness of Lightning Wallets (01:54:57)
BOLT 12 and Privacy Claims (01:56:29)
Improvements in BOLT 12 (01:57:09)
Critique of BOLT 12's Privacy Features (01:59:30)
Super Testnet’s Current Projects and Work Focus (02:00:15)
Development of Mint Market Cap Tool (02:01:30)
Title Transfer App and State Chains (02:02:30)
Ensuring Security in State Chains (02:03:32)
Nostr Wallet Connect Protocol (02:04:26)
Creation of Faucet Generator (02:05:40)
Creating a Testnet (02:06:36)
State Chains Discussion (02:07:12)
Prediction Market Concept (02:08:14)
Project Backlog Overview (02:10:14)
Super Testnet’s Music Career (02:12:29)
Upcoming Conferences (02:14:39)
Coin Pools Advantages (02:15:41)
Planning Conference Attendance (02:17:25)
Workshops and Commitments (02:17:56)
Health and Fitness Journey (02:19:08)
Should Bitcoin Increase the Block Size? (02:20:13)
Soft Fork Proposal (02:21:04)
Market Value of Transactions (02:22:47)
Workshop Availability (02:24:02)
Social Media Presence (02:25:14)
Scams and Fake Accounts (02:26:02)
Social Engineering Tactics (02:26:39)
Money Requests Clarification (02:27:34)
Social Links and Resources (02:27:58)
Audience Engagement (02:28:28)
Closing Remarks (02:29:01)


Graphics: