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    Author Topic: [NXT] Decentralized Asset Exchange Discussion Thread  (Read 31394 times)

    • l8orre
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    February 11, 2014, 08:38:57 PM
     #41
    need to get up early tomorrow - good night!

    the way I tested the ASSET BUY/SELL was using two accounts, so I knew the order details, ie the hit price that was required.

    btw: will  build in some 'DISPLAY ORDER DETAILS' over the weekend!

    nxtFreeRider has a button built in that will be used (when it is connected, that is) for doing a   'matchOrder', ie when you pull an order from the AE, you can create a matching counterorder onto your order slate, and then hit the order right away with one click.

  • Anon136 (OP)
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    February 11, 2014, 08:42:39 PM
     #42
    Quote from: Vannicke on February 11, 2014, 08:31:32 PM
    derp, put one in ... the client is very very laggy for me ... taking quite a bit of patience to get things in place ...

    Its not just you. Its very laggy for me also.
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  • Vannicke
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    February 11, 2014, 08:43:00 PM
     #43
    I can confirm that I have RandomBUX and that I sold 51 0sand1s and the appropriate amount of next has moved accordingly.
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  • Anon136 (OP)
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    February 11, 2014, 08:46:17 PM
     #44
    Quote from: Vannicke on February 11, 2014, 08:43:00 PM
    I can confirm that I have RandomBUX and that I sold 51 0sand1s and the appropriate amount of next has moved accordingly.

    awesome! this is exciting!
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  • Anon136 (OP)
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    February 11, 2014, 08:47:42 PM
     #45
    where do you see asset balances?
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    If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?

  • martismartis
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    February 11, 2014, 08:48:10 PM
     #46
    Quote from: V4V on February 11, 2014, 07:54:23 PM
    Glad to see that the asset exchange feature is coming along. I have a proposal for the asset exchange feature. It can truly make decentralized peer to peer transactions/exchanges legitimate. I have been developing this idea ever since the asset exchange feature was first mentioned in NXT. Here it is.

    Obviously there are dangers inherent within p2p transactions. The main issue here is the lack of trust, and the trust that is lost by not utilizing a third party. When transactions are non reversible, especially with no intervening regulatory figure, the willingness to exchange goods, services, or currencies becomes an issue. My idea to bypass these issues involves an escrow service, a rating system (similar to those on Ebay and Amazon) and the aliasing feature.

    Lets say..

    "Joe" wants to exchange something of value with "Sue" but Joe and Sue don't know each other. How can Joe trust Sue in receiving the item in question after Joe pays Sue? Well of course, they can utilize a third party escrow service, which will insure Joe will receive the item in question by transferring money to the escrow service.

    But,

    you may be asking, doesn't the escrow service defeat the purpose of a true p2p exchange? Yes it does. But it doesn't have to be permanent. This is where NXT can implement a rating based system attached to accounts or the alias' of an account. Think of it as someones credit score attached to a social security number. But within the NXT ecosystem, the credit score is a star based rating, and the social security # is the users NXT account.

    Now revisiting Joe and Sue's transaction, they "must" now rate each other based on how well they serviced each other after the transaction has taken place. When Joe and Sue continue to build their "trust" rating with everyday users of NXT, they have the choice of opting out of the escrow service and they can start trading and exchanging with other users that have trustworthy reputable ratings. After people have built trustworthy ratings within the NXT ecosystem, users will now have a much better understanding of whom they are doing business with, and will establish the most efficient p2p exchange mechanism which no other
    crypto-currency utilizes. 

    I hope you developers see the potential of this system, especially in a p2p environment that exchanges things of value.

    NXT:   5464489754473015994

    In my mind I have another approach for trust, not using any rating system, using some "permanent account" to act like escrow.

    1. Jon wants to sell "asset" for Sue for 100NXT
    2. Jon push "sell", asset goes to "permanent account"
    3. Sue push "buy", 100 NXT goes to "permanent account"
    4. If both things arrived to "permanent account" then this account sends 100 NXT to Joe and "asset" to Sue.

    "Permanent account" is only for naming, can't find better description for now Smiley Does it sound stupid? Smiley

  • Vannicke
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    February 11, 2014, 08:53:05 PM
     #47
    Quote from: Anon136 on February 11, 2014, 08:47:42 PM
    where do you see asset balances?

    I extrapolated from the amount of my assets I could transfer.  The client needs an interface that shows how many of what asset you have, it currently lacks that.

    Edit: also I figured out how much RandomBux I had after hunting down the assetID number.
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  • Anon136 (OP)
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    February 11, 2014, 09:10:24 PM
     #48
    Quote from: Vannicke on February 11, 2014, 08:53:05 PM
    Quote from: Anon136 on February 11, 2014, 08:47:42 PM
    where do you see asset balances?

    I extrapolated from the amount of my assets I could transfer.  The client needs an interface that shows how many of what asset you have, it currently lacks that.

    Edit: also I figured out how much RandomBux I had after hunting down the assetID number.

    k i was just making sure i wasnt missing something
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  • Vannicke
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    February 11, 2014, 09:12:38 PM
     #49
    Quote from: martismartis on February 11, 2014, 08:48:10 PM

    In my mind I have another approach for trust, not using any rating system, using some "permanent account" to act like escrow.

    1. Jon wants to sell "asset" for Sue for 100NXT
    2. Jon push "sell", asset goes to "permanent account"
    3. Sue push "buy", 100 NXT goes to "permanent account"
    4. If both things arrived to "permanent account" then this account sends 100 NXT to Joe and "asset" to Sue.

    "Permanent account" is only for naming, can't find better description for now Smiley Does it sound stupid? Smiley

    Yes, but how would you implement this for real world items.  When Jon pushes "Sell" he can't send 10 ounces of bullion through the internet, for example.  This could be a decent way to send/recieve other cryptocurrecies, but who has the access to the escrow account in order to send the received BTC when Sue pushes "Buy", for example?  It could be done for some things like other cryptos, but how do you make it p2p and secure?  Real world commodity trade may be difficult with this approach.
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  • martismartis
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    February 11, 2014, 09:15:51 PM
     #50
    Quote from: Vannicke on February 11, 2014, 09:12:38 PM
    Quote from: martismartis on February 11, 2014, 08:48:10 PM

    In my mind I have another approach for trust, not using any rating system, using some "permanent account" to act like escrow.

    1. Jon wants to sell "asset" for Sue for 100NXT
    2. Jon push "sell", asset goes to "permanent account"
    3. Sue push "buy", 100 NXT goes to "permanent account"
    4. If both things arrived to "permanent account" then this account sends 100 NXT to Joe and "asset" to Sue.

    "Permanent account" is only for naming, can't find better description for now Smiley Does it sound stupid? Smiley

    Yes, but how would you implement this for real world items.  When Jon pushes "Sell" he can't send 10 ounces of bullion through the internet, for example.  This could be a decent way to send/recieve other cryptocurrecies, but who has the access to the escrow account in order to send the received BTC when Sue pushes "Buy", for example?  It could be done for some things like other cryptos, but how do you make it p2p and secure?  Real world commodity trade may be difficult with this approach.

    OK, this questions are for devs Smiley That was only conception.

  • Vannicke
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    February 11, 2014, 09:35:33 PM
     #51
    Quote from: martismartis on February 11, 2014, 09:15:51 PM
    Quote from: Vannicke on February 11, 2014, 09:12:38 PM
    Quote from: martismartis on February 11, 2014, 08:48:10 PM

    In my mind I have another approach for trust, not using any rating system, using some "permanent account" to act like escrow.

    1. Jon wants to sell "asset" for Sue for 100NXT
    2. Jon push "sell", asset goes to "permanent account"
    3. Sue push "buy", 100 NXT goes to "permanent account"
    4. If both things arrived to "permanent account" then this account sends 100 NXT to Joe and "asset" to Sue.

    "Permanent account" is only for naming, can't find better description for now Smiley Does it sound stupid? Smiley

    Yes, but how would you implement this for real world items.  When Jon pushes "Sell" he can't send 10 ounces of bullion through the internet, for example.  This could be a decent way to send/recieve other cryptocurrecies, but who has the access to the escrow account in order to send the received BTC when Sue pushes "Buy", for example?  It could be done for some things like other cryptos, but how do you make it p2p and secure?  Real world commodity trade may be difficult with this approach.

    OK, this questions are for devs Smiley That was only conception.

    Just to be certain, I did not mean "yes" in my post "Does this sound stupid?"  >_<

    Its a decent idea, but there is an issue in who controls the asset accounts.  Unless I'm missing something, the only way we can send from the "permanent account" is if the account is controlled by a trusted escrow.  It's doable, but makes it less decentralized.

    What might be interesting is to implement escrow right into the asset exchange, so that anyone can have a rated escrow account as well.  For example:

    1. Jon wants to sell "asset" for Sue for 100NXT but has little or no rating.
    2. Jon push "sell", and sends the asset to a linked and highly rated escrow account
    3. Sue pushes "buy", 100 NXT goes to the linked and highly rated escrows account
    4. If both things arrived to account then this account sends the 100 NXT to Joe and asset to Sue.
    5. Upon successful transaction, the escrow, Jon and Sue all +1 each other for a good trade, thus developing rep for Jon, Sue, and the escrow.

    Just an idea, still hard to implement the real world commodity part of the escrow, and maybe that would complicate it too much, but just an idea.  Still, I think ratings of some sort could establish trust.  As far as commodities go though, I think a system to easily implement dividends may prove useful, but I wonder the legal implications of such a thing.  But a full peer-to-peer trading platform would be excellent.


    Edit: pardon me, I've derailed the thread to suggestions ... back to asset exchange testing.
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  • swartzfeger
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    February 11, 2014, 09:41:04 PM
     #52
    Asset: XCP, asset ID 14640293627613982390

    Anon, I haven't confirmed I've received RandomBux yet. The Java client + test server is painfully slow.

  • rickyjames
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    February 11, 2014, 09:42:37 PM
     #53
    Quote from: Anon136 on February 11, 2014, 07:04:37 PM
    Quote from: halabibk on February 11, 2014, 06:44:10 PM
    how to get a testNXT account???

    there is a link to where you download the client in the op. once you get it set up tell me your address and ill send you some text nxt. i have 68k atm so thats plenty to go around

    Perhaps you could repeat this link and some basic instructions in your first post in this thread.

  • swartzfeger
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    February 11, 2014, 09:57:30 PM
     #54
    Quote from: rickyjames on February 11, 2014, 09:42:37 PM
    Quote from: Anon136 on February 11, 2014, 07:04:37 PM
    Quote from: halabibk on February 11, 2014, 06:44:10 PM
    how to get a testNXT account???

    there is a link to where you download the client in the op. once you get it set up tell me your address and ill send you some text nxt. i have 68k atm so thats plenty to go around

    Perhaps you could repeat this link and some basic instructions in your first post in this thread.

    testNXT instructions:

    1. See CfB's post here.
    2. Create testNXT account here: https://holms.cloudapp.net:6875
    3. DO NOT use your main password account; create an account by using a new, unique passphrase.
    4. You can download fmiboy's AE-enabled client here: https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/345619.msg5084677#msg5084677
    5. Ask for testNXT in main thread or here; include your testNXT account number.
    6. HAVE FUN!

  • martismartis
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    February 11, 2014, 09:58:07 PM
     #55
    Quote from: Vannicke on February 11, 2014, 09:35:33 PM
    Quote from: martismartis on February 11, 2014, 09:15:51 PM
    Quote from: Vannicke on February 11, 2014, 09:12:38 PM
    Quote from: martismartis on February 11, 2014, 08:48:10 PM

    In my mind I have another approach for trust, not using any rating system, using some "permanent account" to act like escrow.

    1. Jon wants to sell "asset" for Sue for 100NXT
    2. Jon push "sell", asset goes to "permanent account"
    3. Sue push "buy", 100 NXT goes to "permanent account"
    4. If both things arrived to "permanent account" then this account sends 100 NXT to Joe and "asset" to Sue.

    "Permanent account" is only for naming, can't find better description for now Smiley Does it sound stupid? Smiley

    Yes, but how would you implement this for real world items.  When Jon pushes "Sell" he can't send 10 ounces of bullion through the internet, for example.  This could be a decent way to send/recieve other cryptocurrecies, but who has the access to the escrow account in order to send the received BTC when Sue pushes "Buy", for example?  It could be done for some things like other cryptos, but how do you make it p2p and secure?  Real world commodity trade may be difficult with this approach.

    OK, this questions are for devs Smiley That was only conception.

    Just to be certain, I did not mean "yes" in my post "Does this sound stupid?"  >_<

    Its a decent idea, but there is an issue in who controls the asset accounts.  Unless I'm missing something, the only way we can send from the "permanent account" is if the account is controlled by a trusted escrow.  It's doable, but makes it less decentralized.

    What might be interesting is to implement escrow right into the asset exchange, so that anyone can have a rated escrow account as well.  For example:

    1. Jon wants to sell "asset" for Sue for 100NXT but has little or no rating.
    2. Jon push "sell", and sends the asset to a linked and highly rated escrow account
    3. Sue pushes "buy", 100 NXT goes to the linked and highly rated escrows account
    4. If both things arrived to account then this account sends the 100 NXT to Joe and asset to Sue.
    5. Upon successful transaction, the escrow, Jon and Sue all +1 each other for a good trade, thus developing rep for Jon, Sue, and the escrow.

    Just an idea, still hard to implement the real world commodity part of the escrow, and maybe that would complicate it too much, but just an idea.  Still, I think ratings of some sort could establish trust.  As far as commodities go though, I think a system to easily implement dividends may prove useful, but I wonder the legal implications of such a thing.  But a full peer-to-peer trading platform would be excellent.


    Edit: pardon me, I've derailed the thread to suggestions ... back to asset exchange testing.

    Ok, I'm not native English speaker, but try to explain my thoughts:

    This conception is suitable on things, which we can cross-chain in NXT. Most of them are crypto. "permanent account" or "escrow" I meant is hardcoded in protocol and serves only for collecting "assets" from both parties and release them to both parties. I mean if Sue push "buy", but Joe will not push "sell", assets goes back to Sue. If both push their buttons, escrow releases assets to both parties.

    Or something like this Smiley

    P.S. for a while I don't see how to use Asset Exchange for real world commodity Smiley

    EDIT: "permanent account" or "Escrow" could be the similar account we have today: Genesis account or account, collecting fees and sending them to block forgers.

  • upekha
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    February 11, 2014, 09:59:27 PM
     #56
    cool stuff! Smiley
    NEM - New Economy Movement

  • mcjavar
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    February 11, 2014, 10:56:47 PM
     #57
    Quote from: swartzfeger on February 11, 2014, 09:57:30 PM
    Quote from: rickyjames on February 11, 2014, 09:42:37 PM
    Quote from: Anon136 on February 11, 2014, 07:04:37 PM
    Quote from: halabibk on February 11, 2014, 06:44:10 PM
    how to get a testNXT account???

    there is a link to where you download the client in the op. once you get it set up tell me your address and ill send you some text nxt. i have 68k atm so thats plenty to go around

    Perhaps you could repeat this link and some basic instructions in your first post in this thread.

    testNXT instructions:

    1. See CfB's post here.
    2. Create testNXT account here: https://holms.cloudapp.net:6875
    3. DO NOT use your main password account; create an account by using a new, unique passphrase.
    4. You can download fmiboy's AE-enabled client here: https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/345619.msg5084677#msg5084677
    5. Ask for testNXT in main thread or here; include your testNXT account number.
    6. HAVE FUN!




    18011833952203456566

    can I have some? thx

  • V4V
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    February 11, 2014, 11:39:29 PM
     #58
    Real world commodity exchange is possible. But escrow involves the buyer transferring funds to escrow, and the escrow account confirming to the seller that funds have hit the escrow account. From this point, the buyer and seller can communicate with each other and discuss where to ship the item to. When the item is received by the buyer, the escrow will release funds to the seller.

    On a side note... I believe peer to peer exchange is a wonderful notion. But the downside is trying to find liquidity (whether its currency or commodity) in a decentralized structure. Centralization is a great mechanism for bringing buyers and sellers to a central location and this has what made centralized markets effective and efficient. Think about going back to the bartering days.


    Who wants to start a Craigslist like website for the crypto-currency market? Buyers and Sellers can come together looking for (___________) and they can contact each other through NXT messaging and set up the transaction p2p. It is a great way to find goods and services in a decentralized structure.

    What do you guys think?

  • swartzfeger
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    February 11, 2014, 11:47:47 PM
     #59
    Quote from: V4V on February 11, 2014, 11:39:29 PM
    Real world commodity exchange is possible. But escrow involves the buyer transferring funds to escrow, and the escrow account confirming to the seller that funds have hit the escrow account. From this point, the buyer and seller can communicate with each other and discuss where to ship the item to. When the item is received by the buyer, the escrow will release funds to the seller.

    On a side note... I believe peer to peer exchange is a wonderful notion. But the downside is trying to find liquidity (whether its currency or commodity) in a decentralized structure. Centralization is a great mechanism for bringing buyers and sellers to a central location and this has what made centralized markets effective and efficient. Think about going back to the bartering days.


    Who wants to start a Craigslist like website for the crypto-currency market? Buyers and Sellers can come together looking for (___________) and they can contact each other through NXT messaging and set up the transaction p2p. It is a great way to find goods and services in a decentralized structure.

    What do you guys think?

    I love the idea, but how is browsing a craigslist-style site different/better than just firing up your AE-enabled Nxt client and looking thru a list of open orders for the currency you want?

  • Vannicke
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    February 12, 2014, 12:00:15 AM
     #60
    @V4V

    The problem with that escrow is that the consumer must to notify receipt of the item, so the only way to ensure that the incompetent consumer doesn't say "Yay, it shipped, I must be done with the transaction!"  and disappear into a cave, is if the shipment is somehow verifiable by the escrow itself.

    Okay, come to think of it, there are shipping options that notify of receipt of an item, and integrating this into an escrow protocol can't be too hard to automate.  A system like this could solve the physical commodities issue.  For currency though, this could get very legally grey.

    But combine this with a system to invest and receive dividends in a one stop manner, and I could see a big future in Nxt AE.

    Though, I must say, paying Nxt itself is probably the simplest way to transact real commodities, rather than through the AE.  I think the AE should focus more on intellectual commodities.  A simple dividend system within the protocol could do amazing things.  Tough I do worry there are legal issues that arise from trading intellectual commodities in a peer-to-peer environment.

    Edit: Shameless plugging of my asset on testnet!  Buy Vannicke's Zeroes and Ones!  Best digital bits in town!  AssetID: 10956216527757194145

    Also, the client 0.0.5e seems much faster than 0.0.5 for some operations, such as adding asks/bids and moving through some menus.
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