banksters bitcoin game is to get people to lock bitcoin into bankster vaults. and then play with banksters tokens on other networks that are not bitcoin but just pretend to be.

thank you for suddenly waking up to the game.. only took you 4 years

1920's money was gold backed paper. where the gold was vaulted in custodians. and paper tokens(bank notes) were given to play with....... then THEY decided you cant swap it back for gold

those that then still wanted to invest in gold again in non bank note system.. evolved to 'online certificate' tokens. and has been a bankster latest gold game for decades. guess what will happen to that in future.
more recently:
LN 'millisat' tokens are the greyscale bitcoin game for the last 5 years. and like the 'gold standard' of the early half of the 1900's we will see how these 'watchtower''factories' will suddenly not be able to do bank runs if suddenly large amount of people want to exit LN

best advice:
feel free to day trade small 'disposable' amounts in their systems. but dont use them as your whole wealth asset management.
"if you cant afford to lose it, dont use it"
dont put your hoard into exchanges/LN

stop abusing the buzzword gaslighting until you learn the meaning
if your doubting your sanity. that on you.
but facts and numbers and quotes from devs showing they dont want people to use bitcoin as money exist.

but anyway if we forget the bitcoin as money element and instead leap forward to say bitcoin was always thought of as a reserve asset(gold)
did you know when gold left the money standard in the 1970's they too said 'people can choose to run their own gold vault plus you always have uncensored gold trades available' you not forced to use banknotes

but look how 'mainstream' gold is not. its no longer something every day people use everyday for barter
its not something people think about using daily.
yea it exists in financial industry amungst the big boys. but be honest when was the last time you used gold for daily use barter

plus to be a viable 'vault' in LN. requires you to have enough 'value' locked up to be collateral for tokens in each channel and have multiple channels to be able to be a service. otherwise you just end up having no path/route available or not enough funds to offer out as a route/path for others. and end up only becoming attached to the large services. to reduce your collateral outlay/risk of loss.

maybe try to run real life scenarios/feasibility studies/test runs. and see how realistic the 'freedoms' are that have been promoted to you.
yep run some scenarios and dont just avoid it by saying doing so is some psychological experiment to make you feel insane(gaslight). that rebuttal does not work.

a bitcoin is not the recipients property until its confirmed. thus the 'non broadcast' LN contracts are not verified/solid/confirmed/guaranteed. meaning its a promise not a settlement

secondly gas lighting is about doing things to make you feel insane. sorry but your not that important to the forum. me presenting facts about what a true bitcoin transaction is and what a flimsy promise is that doesnt even use the same units of account has nothing to do with your sanity. its about making people see a different picture to what empty promises and hopes the big banker group are promising by trying to say LN is the same as bitcoin in all things/ways.
same way banks made people falsely believe bank notes were as good as gold. which we now know they are not.

sorry but LN is not bitcoin... the easiest way to spot this, should you do your research. is LN uses tokens/values with more then 8 decimals.
if you cannot count. thats not my problem. but just dont pretend an LN millisat accounting of more then 8 decimals is the same as bitcoin of 8 decimals.
atleast learn what unit of account HTLC use. it will definitely surprise you
atleast learn that LN is not a service devoted to bitcoin. (atomic swaps) that will surprise you again.

its got nothing to do with a making you insane. its actually a reality check. not a scheme to send you to the loony bin. so drop throwing about the gaslight word as my comments on LN has nothing to do with trying you put you into a psych assessment/72hor hold. so get over yourself and wake up

but if you do want to keep promoting LN while not fully understanding it.. atleast dont try over promising LN features under the guise of the security of what bitcoins blockchain offer.
its not the same security model nor accounting model nor settlement model(factories settle offchain).
yep factory/watchtowers can aggregate the vaulted value on the blockchain. and then offer offchain promises(htlc's) where by the promises(htlc's) never settle onchain. they just separetly go back to the factory/watchtower that then re-issues new promises(htlc's) all offchain.

if your not upto date about what LN does. maybe try to use it if you actually want to promote it.. and run scenarios and realise the flaws/limitations. after all you seem to be a fan of it, so its strange you seem reluctant to then use it to learn how it works outside of the publicity literature given to you by others.

just stop acting like a publicity kiss ass and actually understand what your a fan of, thats all im saying

governments dont play in the finance industry. they give that game to a separate organisation which is central and commercial banks. even you subtly recognise the separation by saying 'banks AND government'

so getting back to the topic.
if BANKS want to be involved in crypto heavily they would lobby/bribe government to make laws that help monopolise crypto into banks favour
(EG independent average joe hoarding needs transparency, taxing,verified accounting)
(EG teasing average joe to put funds into custodians offering those services and not be independent hoarder)

if BANKS dont want the crypto as competitors and dont want crypto in their asset list they would again lobby/bribe government to outlaw crypto
(EG governments didnt care either way early on but banks told governments that crypto should be feared)
(EG banks were involved in freezing exchange fiat accounts out of fear early on.)

but using the scenario of favouring crypto assets as this topic deems. we can all look at the gold history of the last 100 years to see what could happen if banks had 90% of circulation.

what happens is banks set up services where normal people can vault up their assets into management of bank services. and in exchange banks offer them tokens/promissory notes to play around with under the guise that its too expensive to handle the underlying asset in normal peoples own hands.
then they start substituting out the tokens via diluting the value via sub divisions of the asset and then when the time is right declassifying the like-for-like settlements if people chose to truly exit the bank service token and return to holding the real asset.

LN factories that do "offchain settlement(close:reopen channel session without blockchain confirms)" are basically bank accounts of promissory note credit

enjoy

If this will be their plan, I think we should take advantage of what we can while in the process. With a lot of Bitcoins in other people, they would be having a hard time controlling the price. And if that would be really their plan, the price of bitcoin would surely go up since they will be buying them unless they convince most of those companies that hold bitcoin to do that.

I also think that most of the bitcoins are in private hands and very few of these people will sell it to banks or governments. Anyone who believes in the development and growth of the cryptocurrency market will keep and protect them in their wallet.

when you finally go and research what factories/shadow chains do (settle and reissue) OFFCHAIN. then you will have your wake up moment.
then during that wake up moment i hope you start to wonder and then further research who would own/manage/supervise such factories/shadowchains. who sets the rules for whats an acceptable "settlement" on these offchain services.

then you might start to see the bigger picture.

but that day.. seems to be another ignorant amount of months/years away

so have fun in the meantime.

..
p.s should you get bored of ignorance. check out whats the difference between a HTLC and a 'commitment tx'
yea they love to rename things to hide their function. but. i know you wont bother
..

anyway. to the global point of this topic..
when people start to realise their asset is being made to be too expensive to barter/transact daily with normal things in life independently. and bankers are offering services which can give them the speed/cheapness they used to have independently. yet there is a relationship between the bankers and those 'innovators' that made the asset more expensive to handle

then slowly people do end up handing over their assets to a custodian. and the custodian hands them other tokens. and slowly but the vale/spendable value of the token detaches from the value of the locked up asset.
eventually more fee's and methods are employed to make it harder to get hands on the underlying asset. and the bankers try to offer you less valued assets in exchange

..
with LN this is ALREADY HAPPENING
i do hope you learn about shadowchains beyond the glossy brochure fluff. it is eye opening

So, as always, you don't bat an eyelid about centralised exchanges, PayPal, or any other fully-custodial services, where users will undeniably have far less choice about how much control they want to keep over their funds.  Instead, you take aim at the open-source code that provides people with more choice.  Not to mention taking yet another topic that had nothing to do with Lightning and turning it into yet another lie-fest about a system you're totally obsessed with.

Just because people could eventually have an option to use services that work with channel factories, they will still have the choice to open their own channels if they choose to.  Stop pretending that factories would be compulsory, you lying shitweasel.  I know you hate freedom, being the fascist little Nazi that you are, but none of your tiresome fear-mongering is going to stop users enjoying the freedoms off-chain transactions offer them.  You can't put a dent in progress because you are a meaningless speck of excrement.  I can't remember the last time I saw anyone take you seriously.  You're a joke.  Why don't you go back to loitering in the Politics and Society board?  Your caveman mindset appears to be tolerated there.  You're too ignorant and too heavily discredited to be in any position to lecture people about Bitcoin anymore.  You pathetic, worthless troll.

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To everyone else, I'll point you to this factual topic about Lightning, where the above troll is banned from posting, because the moderators got tired of his constant dishonesty.

Plus even if you use a custodial Lightning service/wallet, NOTHING in their process of opening the channel has, made them deposit to a centralized entity in order to receive "tokens" to use in LN. NOTHING.


That should be taken as an opportunity to reply/post the truth. He's posting anything in case people like you don't reply, and gaslight newbies.