suchmoon pointed out this thread after I posted this:

https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/5182672.msg52398949#msg52398949

And this a link to what I posted back in June:
https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/5154576

DireWolfM14 o_e_l_e_o you are both 100% correct in what you are saying, and with:

You do paint a good picture. And it's a good idea.

But, I still think we need to separate money from everything else.

I know it makes me look like a horrible human being when I say "I don't care if you are an ass, who is rude to people I only care if I can trust you with BTC"
But, with the system we have we are stuck with it.
Which is why I have been advocating for a separate "trade trust" and "forum trust and feedback" feature.

Because, if you can say "This person is a vile and disgusting human being, who is racist and homophobic and you really want to shower yourself off after dealing with them" is a fair thing to post (if it's true) BUT, in the marketplace trading sections you should be able to see: "Did 5 trades with them totaling much money, deal was fine every time" then I think this would be a better place. There are people not leaving honest trust because of social political reasons. Having straight trade info, and nothing more would

As a perfect example IRL.
I think anti-vaxers are morons who should be eliminated from the gene pool.
I just sold one of them my old dirt bike. I don't hang out with him, I don't really talk to him, and I think he is an idiot.
But, he showed up on time, brought a friend with a trailer, had the agreed amount of cash, gave it the quick once over and loaded it up and left.
This is real life, we are not in a bubble. There are billions of people on this planet, we are going to have opposing views with a lot of them.
It's nice to know in advance, who has views we disagree with, but we can still trust to do what they say.

I know I have been saying we need trade trust for a long time that is independent of everything else.

I'm not getting much traction, but I will keep saying it.

During that time I will probably do what was suggested and "include users whose ratings I want to see, and exclude those whose ratings I don't"

Thanks for reading my rant (again)

-Dave

Side note:
Just leave early, until the explosives and guns come out it could be quite a party :-P

Recently? How long are you around? The very concept of DefaultTrust in an anonymous forum is fundamentally flawed. Human trust system does not work unless real world identity is at stake. Here, you really dont know whether Alice, Bob, Jeff etc. are all the same person. Most of the people in DT and the people trying to be in DT are doing it for one simple reason - To break trust and gain at some point directly or indirectly. Disagreed? Right?

Tell me how many of our today's great DT members left +ve trust for Friedcat? They were mostly at the top of FC's ponzi. They all gained. But, they are still there. Same for Tradefortress and Pirate@40. These real scumbags were never kicked out of DT.

Now, in the new trust system, this corrupted status quo is being challenged. This is creating a jitter among them. They are trying to circulate as much merit among the old group as possible and scathing to be a merit source to have as much as possible 250 merited alts. Some are even demanding DT to be Legendary only!

The show will go on...

You are just folding as a form of conflict avoidance. This whole thread is a giant dance of conflict avoidance. You cant even say my name or PM me your concerns like a real man, you have to dance around with metaphors and examples. You are just caving to the mob because it is most convenient, that is all there is to it.

EDIT:

"By allowing Alice to remain on DT1 she would enable a suspected embezzler and convicted thief onto DT2."

Please do source the substantiation for these claims in the non-theoretical context if you will.

I don't think this matches typical expected human behavior. I would expect a person to include Alice in their trust list as a means of supporting her, even if it is known her judgement is flawed. A person may "manually" ignore the trust ratings of Alice's boyfriend and other friend by not considering these ratings when considering the trustworthiness of presumed unrelated third parties, but anyone including you in their trust list will be SOL. I would not expect a person to even exclude Alice's boyfriend or other friend from their own trust list out of loyalty to Alice. 


I believe you are describing various social circles interacting with eachother via the trust system; the social circles happen to be focused around ethnic groups. This may be one example as to why a single "default trust" is inappropriate, despite no good alternative solution. I would expect various social circles to include eachother in their trust lists, and if a dominant social circles feels threatened, they may seek to either exclude the competing social circle, or persuade members of the lessor social circle to develop their trust list in the interest of the dominant social circle. Some people are skilled at playing politics and have shown themselves to be beneficial to multiple social circles, sometimes by showing they can be helpful to social circles that do not even speak the same language.

I do not wish to get involved in trust system politics, but I do not believe the trust system is reliable for the reasons stated above. I believe the trust system could be accurately described as a popularity contest. In probably the majority of cases, those within the 1st level of the trust system demonstrate solid judgment, but this is not true all the time.

You just said it all. One of the major problem of this forum is the local boards. When it comes to merits, the members just get flooded with merits unnecessary to the extent they could rank up far more easily compared to their peers on the english board. The trick they use is, the meriting doesn't usually occur on the local boards since there isn't much to discuss there, it's a mixture of both english and local board.

Well we're not discussing about merit so let me get back on topic, Trust issue; To my understanding the DT list should consist of users who's feedback should be considered trustworthy but when you observe the users making the list that got there due to the massive support of their local board members, you'll notice immediately they have little or no history in giving trustworthy feedback (in other words no history of policing the forum). So if I may ask how then, do you determine a users judgement to be trustworthy if there isn't any work to should for it? Some might say their posting habbit but that shouldn't be the case, we have merits to take care of everything relating to posting behavior.

Solution: Theymos should manually blackish all users on the DT list (especially DT1) that doesn't have convincing history of policing the forum. DT should be all about policing the forum and nothing more. Any other reason that doesn't involve actions on the forum should be kept aside, you don't based judgement on emotions.  The funny part is, the moment they get those privilege you start seeing funny positive trust farming like"This user is very active and a quality poster in my local board" sent to themselves.

Statistics (in Daily merits over local boards) show that there are not significantly merits distributed in most of local boards. There are only a few of them have significant merits distributed per day: Russian, Turkish, and German.
Median values are p50 values in the below table.
Fortunately, there are not many outlier days (that presented by red circles)
In my understandings:
- Trust relates to trading with others
- Feedback, you can leave feedbacks for so many reasons, not only trading issues, and trustworthiness. (One can leave feedback with spam posting behaviour, like @The Pharmacist and @actmyname did before merit system; and for many other reasons).
To be in DT team, users need to have enough Trust vote, and long history in DT team. If someone only voted (enough) into DT team, a few hours or days, personally I don't see them as real DT members. It takes time to verify their received trust votes, and their acts with DT-member powers.
It is just for very serious and noisy cases because the main ideas of theymos to create Trust system years ago, and adjusted it at least three times (I am not sure, but maybe: Original Trust system; Default Trust change; Trust flags), is to stay away from those things. He wanted decentralized solutions from community-led interactions.
If one DT1-member abuse Trust list by including so many 'friends', other DT1-members will exclude that one from their trust list.

LOL at you devouring your own pretzels freshly expelled semi undigested by your merit cycling , trust inclusions/ exclusions  " alleged but fully observable" friends.

"unless" it is rather that you can not read... he will ask alice unless her boyfriend is not around at the time. That does not mitigate ANY of the potential hazards of letting Alice anywhere out of your sight with a large wad of your cash. Unless you could install some reality of the REAL world and her REAL associations.

Well done for accusing us of twisting others words whilst you twist our words and dire posting burger flipper words. Brilliant agent fox poop. ALso willing at once to accept a scenario magnitudes less probable than some girl having her phone grabbed from her and shouting at the thief give my phone back or I report this to the cops. LOL what a vile merit cycling vixen.

And then Agent foxpoop said..... hahahaah

So a good way to not have honest people on DT is to say they have bad judgement and rather have scammers on DT because you say they have good judgement. See how this works you take away the objectively verifiable HAVE THEY SCAMMED OR BEEN INVOLVED IN FINANCIAL WRONG DOING ( lots of DT1 have been) then you replace it with some subjective garbage LIKE do we the scammers on DT  SAY they have good judgement or bad judgement so along with the subjective merits we give out its ike a double security measure to make sure we don't get honest people who will stop our scheme we have going.




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Really though,

Alice probably designed our DT election process (then was talked into making it worse by jeff and bob)  then went off believing all those very kind and respectful people on meta that are very nice to her (face) are also to be trusted to act totally selflessly when there is money on the table and no more accountability to anyone except themselves. Also didn't notice that they were a bunch of servile sneaky back stabbing scamming trust abusing scum who like to feel they at last have some small amount of power at long last after being bullied all of their pathetic lives.

Luckily some of those excellent people on meta have been trying to back stab alice lately and not been so nice she notices. Alice is starting to wonder if these people are not as trustworthy as she originally thought. Let's see how it progresses now that her REAL friends have shown up on meta to reveal the TRUTH to alice that she has been taken for a mug and it is time to face the observable instances of wrong doing that those nice friends on meta have been up to , and how they have clubbed together to silence her new REAL friends whilst attempting to stay in positions of power to cream off all of the best sig campaigns and act out their revenge for being bullied all of their lives.  If Alice wants REAL friends who want to really help her then she must stop assisting those back stabbing, scamming, and ruthless slime balls silencing via spamming, trolling, trust abuse, weaponizing gamed and abused metrics.

That's all to complex for most meta dwellers and far too long. These posts are primarily for the people that will read this board as students of the root hub of the paradigm shift that is about to take place, and Alice if she is waking up.

Alice (the real alice) may be intelligent but has been brought up by a scientist on an island 300 nautical miles  SSW of the Fiji

Actually that scene in twins with the smooth talking fellow underwear admirer is brilliant. It is almost a perfect analogy of how it works around here. Suchmoon befriends Him, then signals for tman or lauda on the bike to grab the case of money and goods.... haha then after they are accidentally harmed whilst robbing (given red trust and booted off DT the first time) he takes pitty on his poor new pals and tries to help fix the damage. LOL brilliant

Here is the suchmoon edited version that cuts out the part where she signals to her pals to steal the case to make it look like theymos just being careless and inconsiderate and heavyhanded..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lS-zP7JWJUo

any witnesses that have the full clip then please produce it.



The scene where jeff asks alice to LIFT the merits bar to 250 earned. Helping those poor victims that could be out there about to be harmed if the wrong people with not sufficient cycled merits were to get on DT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADFz4JYOVWw

You see if you raise a members merit score to greater than 250 then the automatic assumption they are trustworthy cuts in and you can scam and get away with it.


Movie of  alice once she has been on the mainland a while and met a new REAL FRIEND and REAL LEGEND  discussing their  latest views on bob an jeff and their merit cycling bitches haha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzvFNLAnYNw



OR perhaps...


Theymos arriving at meta board for another long day ahead...haha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DjGVcFwD3I

Vod clearly having a good time...lol



Meanwhile cryptohunter (played by the same actor our fav) on route to the DT1 merit cycling party....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9FYBjSc3cU

Excuse me I forgot to introduce myself " I'm Cryptohunter and I love my unsullied trust score"....  haha

Tman I don't like you using foul language, not a classy auction scammer like you haha

What a true lengend that guy was.

So now we have it.


They try to prevent you with hoarding their cycled merits.
They try to prevent you by finding ANY excuse to claim you are financially high risk,

If you get the earned merits and they can not find any excuse to say you are a scammer.

They will rthen use their subjective opinions of your judgement of others assumed character traits that either make them suitable or not for DT.

Just another layer of control to make sure ONLY THOSE THEY WANT get on DT1 if you are squeaky clean and get the 250 cycled merits threshold. So far very few have because the 250 earned merits are only given out to that threshold level to their alts or acolytes. TS is one of only a tiny few that have the merits and the clean sheet that are not 100% in their pockets so they are shitting bricks.


This dire posting burger flipper can't even create a sensible and credible case, and refuses to present the RESULTS of his musings and produce his own trust list so we can EXAMINE his judgement CAN HE??

Imagine if we found his trust list riddled with those that have observable instances of financially motivated wrong doing ?? then what about his musings?

BRING YOUR TRUST INCLUSIONS LIST DIREWOLF so we can see if we should follow your guidance and direction to creating our own trust lists. Let's not discuss the possible theoretical results of who would then be there. Let us look at the real time results of your musing and guidance now.

WHAT YOU DON'T WANT PUBLIC ANALYSIS OF YOUR TRUST LIST ? where you are FORCED ON THREAD to say YES OR NO to whether their observable and undeniable actions were trustworthy and show good judgement one by one??

BRING IT. WE CHALLENGE YOU TO DO IT NOW.  Then we may look again at your musings.

when you chop up quotes they can mean what you want them to I guess.

suchmoon has adopted a different approach ... simply quote a reference to one thread then make a reply to a different thread. LOL

Or steamtyme who cuts my quote short to make it appear I am incredulous that homophobics are not DT1 worthy. When I was incredulous that scammers and racists were and homophobics not.

Let's only do that if you are making it clear you are not really attempting to tackle the central points.

It is GOOD that you admit viewing direwolfs trust list would support our argument.
Since you believe it is generous to call observable undeniable instancesn and their undeniable implications.. a pathetic attempt at making and argument, then you will have no issue debunking it here. Or helping direwolf to debunk our central points. That his musings are bogus or else he is not following his own advice.

So look, anyone here on meta is free to debunk our points. Get on with it.

What is the betting you will not try and if you do try you will fail?

Have you noticed yet we don't have our central points debunked? ever?

why? because they are true and correct.

Once this is all fixed up and honest members are not wearing scam tags or living in fear of getting scam tags from scammers or their supporters. Then we will have very little interest in meta board. For this to happen measures need to be put in place to make that impossible.

If you need more clarity on the central points again, the just ask. We are always happy to present our case over and over.