According to the document I quoted extensively above, so much as withdrawing your coins to your own wallet which has not been linked to your KYC data is enough to put you on a watchlist. It is quite clear the future the governments and authorities around the world want for bitcoin: Only to be used on centralized exchanges under extensively KYCed accounts. No decentralization, no peer to peer trades or exchanges, and no use as a currency. Buy it on a CEX, store it on a CEX, sell it on a CEX, and anything else is prohibited, which would obviously be the death of bitcoin as we know it. This is the future that franky1 is supporting.

And who defines what are "questionable sources"? I discussed this before here: https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/5286821.msg60373127#msg60373127. The most hilarious example is this: Under Wasabi's terms, they will censor people from paying for hosting the bitcoin whitepaper, since in some stupid jurisdictions known scammer CSW owns the copyright.

researching. learning and understanding does not mean supporting it

being ignorant and not willing to learn is a way of you defeating yourself
EG if a boxer does not know his opponents moves a boxer cannot learn how to defend himself

so learn things . research things. then you wont get defeated so easily

.. but yet again.. your point was not to try and prove i support something or pigeon hole me into some silly natative you made up.. (not an orgininal tactic by your group).. you again are just pointing aimless fingers of distraction just to not accept the reality that.. your buddy group idolise the DCG.. where its the DCG that are actually involved in lobbying for regulations so that they can operate legitimately
its funny how you completely wish to avoid any negative speak about them..

so take your cries and finger pointing to them. your kiss ass love and adoration should have atleast earned you a few minutes talk time with them to vent your frustrations about their actions in regards to lobbying for regulations and accepting payments from regulators

and please. stop being a pedantic idiot and actually take the time to learn things


you want to pretend this means all coins are suspect(facepalm)
no its not about saying all utxos are suspect.
its a guidance for vasps.. where a vasp reading it and sees that it is receiving funds from a vasp...
its a guidance for vasps.. where a vasp reading it and sees that it is sending funds to a vasp...
where that vasps CDD or KYC processes are demonstrably weak or non-existent.

it means when funds are moved between vasps if one vasp is not following its CDD/KYC processes or doesnt comply at all even when it should. then treat funds coming from them as suspicious.


however.. by you and your buddies trying to do silly adverts of scare stories and fear to try and get everyone to use a mixer(known red flag) YOU and your buddies are trying to cause all coins to get flagged.

yep your malicious greedy immature and naive games are that your small swamp of 0.25% flags that your utxo's sit in. you fear you might be caught oneday because your in a small swamp of people that use mixers.

so instead of trying to think of a real solution such as stop swimming in swamps. you instead want the whole community to jump into your swamp in the hopes you can hide better by having everyones utxo put on a watch list. while then play more distracting games to pretend/scare/lie to everyone by saying they already are in a swamp because [insert your misunderstand/misrepresenting dumb games].
hard facts shows not everyone is in your swamp.
(1700tx a  block ~10k an hour ~89,250,000 a year yet.. there are not 89m SAR reports generated a year from crypto)

 but you just care about fooling people to jump into your swamp of flagged utxo(caused by you using a mixer) under your false pretence that they already are..
which again makes you a very vile person

m0nce nice try to poke a derailment to avoid the nonsense oeleo keeps spewing out
ill just say this
bitcoin never leaves the bitcoin network. (fact, thats the beauty of the security)
whether its balance on an exchange mysql database.
whether its another unit of measure pegged at 1:1000 rate or 1:1 rate on another network.. those are not bitcoin thus someone somewhere owes you real bitcoin on the bitcoin network at a later date when they broadcast a real bitcoin transaction to the bitcoin network

..
as for what oeleo said. the bit he was quoting is gudelines for a vasp.. lets call it vaspA where the quoted bit from FAFT is saying if vasp A is sending or receiving from another VASP where that VASP is not conducting KYC then treat the funds coming from the VASP as suspect
(this has nothing to do with random coins from users own wallets. its about funds coming from another exchange)
so oeleo is trying to pretend it means its about all coins from all sources of all wallets/users. but its not.
he is trying to exaggerate/make up and fake and pretend and lie about many things to falsely suggest that all coins are red flagged by default. but they are not



while you lot are trying to stir the social drama about taint.
what you lot are ignoring(still) is it doesnt matter of source of funds before a mixer.. its the use of the mixer itself that puts a red flag on a utxo, which gets put on a watchlist(wher they can then look back at movements before he mix)
and those receiving funds from a mixer are red flagged. where that utxo is put on a watch list and they can follow the movements after the mixer

so no matter the source pre mix.. your on a watchlist. thus people are watching you.

and yes there is a established list of what causes a red flag

That's what I was asking franky1, "what watch list"? He's always there and invents something to disinform, and gaslight people, especially newbies.

It could be true that clean outputs from WasabiWallet might be rejected, but its blocking of outputs that were used in "illegal transactions" could protect its CoinJoin pool from sanctions.


Exchanges can do anything they need to do to protect themselves from sanctions, but my debate is merely either you accept the trade off and mix through Wasabi, or you don't. I'm not debating whether nopara37 did the right decision or not.

I did a small experiment in this post: https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/5395035.msg59905002#msg59905002
One particular blockchain analysis entity found that approximately 25% of coins in Binance's hot wallet were part of an OFAC blacklist. Bittrex's hot wallet contained coins from known scams and hacks. Why are these exchanges accepting these coins which are tainted? The only logical conclusion is that different entities have different definitions of taint, which goes to show how arbitrary the whole thing is, but also means that coins from one CEX could be refused by another CEX.

I've put franky1 back on ignore, but it is hilarious that he is still just repeating the same trash after I definitively proved him wrong earlier I this thread. By the very document he is using to support his red flag nonsense, even so much as buying bitcoin with a credit card or withdrawing your bitcoin to your own wallet is enough to earn you the exact same red flag.

It is clear that the problem here is not mixers, or coinjoins, or anonymous altcoins like Monero, or any other privacy tools such as Tor, or the users who are interested in maintaining a bit of privacy in the face of the ever increasing global surveillance we are all subjected to. The problem here is governments and centralized exchanges which want to turn bitcoin in to a surrogate CBDC, where you can only interact with bitcoin on approved, KYC enforced platforms, under the watchful eye of your overlords.

@franky1: Look, you've made a lot of posts about this and I see what you're saying and I even empathize with your position and agree with some of your analysis, but if you truly believe that there is some kind of Bitcointalk conspiracy to trick innocent users into adding their clean UTXO's to the "swamp" then I don't think there is much profit in discussing this with you.

In your mind, how is it that I agree so strongly with your opposition? Am I part of the conspiracy, too? Do you think that I'm just parroting other users and not applying my own mind to the problem?

My position is very simple and can be stated from two points of view:

The user point of view: It may be better for individual users to steer clear of anything that obfuscates their transaction history because that (and a million other things) will probably add them to some bullshit "list" and may affect their future dealings.

The system point of view: We all have a responsibility to recognize where "taint" and "watchlist" fearmongering will eventually lead us if we don't fight back against it. That means being opposed to anything that undermines fungibility and being for anything that enhances it.

I expect most people to act in (what they perceive to be) their own best interests (like you are) by trying to avoid being "marked". But I hope that a significant fraction of users will see the bigger picture and realize what's at stake here.

Ideas like being able to "freeze" someone's assets are not a part of Bitcoin. We shouldn't let fear allow us to become complicit in the construction of systems that would eventually be used for things like this.

nope
being watched and red flagged is not about being a criminal first to earn an investigation and a level where someone is watching you..
thats your first failure especially when later in your post you pretend that it requires LN,liquid/mixer/monero to be proven as doing criminal things to be suspected
sorry thats not how the real world works

have a read.. you will learn that the entities you want to hide from have a list of what they are particularly watching for.. i actually tried to help you lot by showing you what they watch for and what they red flag so you can learn what to stay away from to not be on their watch list(no matter if your clean or dirty)
https://bt.irlbtc.com/view/5409206.msg60729993#msg60729993

my point has been repeated many times

those wanting to remain under the radar and not appear on a watch list. should avoid things that put them on watchlists.  SIMPLE!!!
it does not matter what they bought.. its about by the USE OF A MIXER they are on a watch list(something they want to avoid)
SIMPLE!!
so simple solution dont use a mixer,ytumbler LN, liquid, monero or other AEC or (other things in list) = dont get on a watch list
SIMPLE!

it doesnt matter if you bought office chair legitimately from a good retailer..and with the 'change' then using a mixer. the very fact of using a mixer puts you on a watch list.

its not about just being on some blockchain taint on the ledger that SEC investigators dont have time or labour to watch every uxto every second.. .. its about you actually having your deposit into mixer highlighted to a point that human eyes are physically then investigating the movements from the mixer backward to the payment service that dealt with the office chair

and the mixer withdrawal(from the mixer to your current unspent output).. another investigation with physical eyes looking at the movement from the mixer to current unspent output

thus you are now on the radar. where as if you didnt use a mixer. you would have not been red listed. its simple

so you are actually not being private/hidden. but actually watched to a higher scale due to using a mixer.
..
again to note every hour there are ~10k tx.. but only 25 are mixer related. human eye investigators at MSB do not watch with physical eyes 10k tx an hour. instead they are only interested in the suspicious ones(the 25 per hour)
as its a time saving to only watch the suspicious transactions (which regulators deem as suspicious by having a list of what they declare as suspicious activity to watch)

---

however the social drama of particular people
(separate debate)
those certain people who are ignorantly trying to convince normal/everyone to use mixers. have nefarious intent in why they are exaggerating the foolish need that everyone should join their swamp pool of coins those certain people are just spinning between each other
EG if you only have tomatos being put into a saucepan.. you are only going to get tomato sauce out of the saucepan.

sticking with the saucepan analogy
they want other ingredients added to their small saucepan of tomatoes so they can spoon out the other ingredients for themselves and leave the tomatoes for whomever put other ingredients into their saucepan
leaving them with the red sauce to have to deal with


mixers DO NOT REMOVE blockchain taint. all coins are always linked all the way back to the coin reward they were generated from.
a mixer does not cut that.
it just swaps one persons source with another person

meaning nefarious people want to swap their coin with someone else that has no nefarious activity..
and that nefarious activity ends up with the person how handed off their non nefarious activity

---

certain nefarious peoples next agenda is to totally dismantle bitcoins audit system where they want to break bitcoin to have it where users cannot prove their coin was generated from mining coin reward. which sounds good to nefarious people because it removes tracking.. but to normal people that want to see clearly that no one just randomly invented coin,thus want to know that bitcoin complies to the 21m coin rule of mining. those people that want a good money system that cant be counterfeited, double spent dont want bitcoin broke for the dreams of nefarious intent people that dont care about bitcoin but only care about their own personal greed and selfish desires.

again for probably the 20th time
its not about the activity before or after the mixer being good or criminal (silly peoples latest misdirect)

its about the use of a mixer puts you on a watchlist no matter the activity before or after it.

people that want to remain private dont want to be on a watch list on some SAR that goes to a government agency
so the smart thing is to learn what do the agencies list as things they consider red flags that generate SAR reports to them..  

..
and remember, the main lobby group that helped write the rules along side legislators, to then run legit businesses that comply, follow and use the rules and pass on SAR to agencies can be found here:
https://dcg.co/portfolio/

so go complain to them
oh and i have been calling the DCG out on their shit for 7 years plus, ever since they got their grubby paws on the edges and core of bitcoin

knowing how they operate helps me avoid them

better solution
1. ignorance is not bliss
2, know that using mixers does put you on a watch list
3. pushing everyone onto a watchlist helps no one
4.think of a different service NOT described as a mixer but instead a loop hole term not in their list

(emphasis on 4)
like uber never called itself a taxicab company so that it can avoid taxicab regulations. (even though its feature and function resembled the service a taxicab service operated)
think of a new term like "private property protection tool" that does a similar function but not described in the way that is listed as a red flag

where swaps happen privately. and protected by private property laws that have existed since the romans

yep "privacy" laws are nuanced and modern and not as protective as people think.
economics/money has no privacy protections. thus trying to defend your value under "privacy" is a weak legal defense to protect what is yours.

think smarter

So asking change for the meter would become illegal too? It still amazes me how many people always ask for more government regulation and less freedom.

Let me guess: next you'll tell me you have nothing to hide?