If that's what you think, how can you explain, the top 10 altcoins in the market which some have even billions of dollars in trading volume.
https://coinmarketcap.com/

If you think they are just for speculation, I don't think they're different from Bitcoin. To see the bigger picture, look at the dominance; Bitcoin currently has 48.8% dominance in the overall market, and the rest is just controlled by altcoins. Imagine if those altcoins were taken out; panic would surely happen, and I don't think Bitcoin would stay at the current price.

Also, when a huge exchange is hacked, how come it affects the value of Bitcoin? So that only states that the market does not revolve around Bitcoin alone; legitimate altcoins are also linked to Bitcoin in terms of market sentiment.



It reached its ATH due to speculation, hype, and the like, because if it were organic, the price would not have dumped significantly after the bull run.
Just take the last bull run as an example: Bitcoin hit an ATH of $66k. Now, what is the current price?

I don't really agree with several of stadus's points, but I do think that there is a kind of balancing that needs to be considered and we are likely not going to be able to come to agreements regarding how much government and/or oversight and/or self-regulation might be valuable as a kind of struck balance.

Maybe another way of thinking about the matter is that I have my doubts that there would be much if any advancement in society if there were some kind of goal to stamp out all shitcoins, and so surely there are some kinds of behaviors that are more egregious than others, and sometimes some of the practices around bitcoin and shitcoins could facilitate various kinds of obfuscation of criminal and/or fraudulent behaviors..

I am not going to claim to know where the right balance is, and even though I am not likely to talk good about very many shitcoins, especially if they have their own token, they do sometimes provide some valuable testing grounds for technological and even incentive structure innovations that could overall being beneficial whether adopting some of that onto bitcoin or maybe serving as some kind of second, third, forth or whatever layer.. and so sometimes there could be ways to invest time, money and energies in some of those kinds of projects.. yet at the same time, from my own perspective, if there is some kind of project that is not bitcoin and it has created its own token, then there is going to be some presumption against them in terms of their being a good investment or that they are necessarily providing some kind of value... and at the same time some of them do provide some value..

Even that piece of shit ethereum that serves as the motherasshole out of which many shitcoins flow, there could be some aspects of ethereum in which some learning can take place.. so it is really difficult to make blanket statements, even if we might have certain presumptions. including that many of us will find that studying many of the variations of shit products does not tend to be a good use of time for people who have other areas of interest and ONLY so much time that they are able to spend trying to figure out some of their seemingly purposefully convoluted structures that frequently seem to be purposefully designed to scam when they make them so complicated when there are likely easier (and more straight-forward) ways to go about such designs and practices.


That is a dumb metric.  You should not be attempting to determine if something is valuable or not merely because it has a lot of marketcap.


Sounds like you don't understand bitcoin if you are making those kinds of arguments.

Many folks should be trying to figure out what bitcoin is first before getting caught up in the various shitcoin talking points.

So at least if you end up understanding bitcoin, then you might have better chances to understand some of the shitcoins, and perhaps if you figure out some aspects of bitcoin, maybe spending 100-300 hours studying it, you may well end up coming to realize that you don't need to be wasting so much time trying to argue how shitcoins have some kind of meaningful and/or substantive value.. beyond being just pump and dump nonsense or otherwise convoluted nonsense that is largely just affinity scaming the king.


Again.. meaningless metrics.  You are doubling down on meaningless metrics and distracting shitcoin talking points...and trying to sound (appear) smart while you are going through your meaningless analysis.


But so what?  Who cares?  A lot of things affect Bitcoin's price including some shitcoin dynamics, but why does that matter?  why does that make bitcoin like a shitcoin?

Again, likely you need to study bitcoin first before getting caught up on meaningless metrics/indicators like the cavemen watching shadows in the cave and proclaiming those shadows to have meaning when the better ways to get meaning would actually be going outside of the cave and seeing what is actually happening rather than relying on the shadows that you see (the allegory of the cave).


Even though none of us likely really know all of the ways in which BTC price is affected, but you can still consider that there are likely some aspects of bitcoin that are contributing to its longer term price dynamics that mostly revolve around ideas of 1) stock to flow, 2) 4-year fractal and 3) exponential s-curve adoption based on network effects^** and metcalfe principles.  So yeah, there are some other short term ups and downs that can take place but you likely are going to get a bit further in your analysis by looking at the three categories in terms of attempting to figure out some of the longer term BTC price dynamic...

** Note:  network effects is related to the seven pointed out by trace mayer.

You can increase your economy through investment in Bitcoin. Although there are lots of other options but bitcoin is unique among them. Also remember that you economy cannot be good within a month but it will requires your high priced time.

Those who have faith in bitcoin can get the profit easily but if you Loss your faith when market oscillates then it is not possible for you to have patience anymore as you will decide to stop thinking during bear market and will have faith that market will always red and will never turn into green.

A crypto expert will not be effected by red or green/ups and downs as before Initiation they learned all the necessary information and also trust on past to be reoccur in future also.

Yes, I agree with you @JJG, you have a clear point. Wiping it from the face of the Earth won't bring any change and, if no shitcoins are not in the market, it will be so boring because it is only Bitcoin that will stay, so it won't be interesting, just like how it is now that we are all talking about Bitcoin and altcoins at the same time, so if only Bitcoin is in the market things to discuss about won't be many, if not price?It will just like like everyone already knows how it is.
I accept the fact that the punishment is not about death, so shitcoins should still stay and occupy space, unless we find high crimes in shitcoinsbe.

Generalizing the altcoins market as shitcoins is wrong, though we might have different views, your presumption that there's only a 0.1% possibility of the token rising again, which is close to impossible, is baseless. Have you gone through checking the altcoins market? The first altcoin that enjoyed enormous success was Ethereum. Back then, BNB was just a token for Ethereum before they had their own network, and guess what's one of the biggest exchanges now? Isn't it Binance?

The point is, if it does not start as a Eth Token, Binance woudn't be successfu and the present time and you are probably benefiting on the existence of the exchange since most traders favorite is Binance.

Look at the history of BNB and see how profitable it is.


source : https://coincodex.com/ico/binance-coin/

I think that you took my points differently than I had intended because I was mostly attempting to describe the various challenges in investing into BTC and also holding for the long term... so "easier said than done" has to do with how difficult it can be to HODL or keep buying or to just have some solid strategies (that could even include some selling on the way up and buy on the way down), especially when profits can sometimes seem to become so great so quickly.


I am glad that you have conviction, so that does help to hold through the greatly volatile periods, and for sure, there are no guarantees that bitcoin's price will "always go up."


I have repeated my points of diversification many times, but yes.. shitcoiners use such ideas in order to try to sell their crap... so even if someone might start out ONLY invested in bitcoin and cash, so the only diversification is the level of cash that is held to offset the bitcoin, at a certain point, as our investment into bitcoin grows, and maybe it becomes several times our annual income, we are likely going to need to consider ways to protect ourselves from the extremes of BTC's likely ongoing volatility including realizing that bitcoin's UPpity trajectory is not guaranteed.

how much should we be investing into other asset classes such as property, stocks, bonds, commodities and/or cash/cash equivalents is surely a matter of personal discretion.. but it seems that there is going to be some need to have some assurance that, even if bitcoin does end up going to zero, there is some ownership of other assets.. and/or income sources.. and how much can we keep in cash that we won't end up using to buy bitcoin as its price goes down and we are not sure when such downward fall is going to stop and we could end up running out of cash at some point during some of the bitcoin downity price events.. that surely happen from time to time and maybe more frequently than many of the BTC hodlers would prefer.


Just because shitcoiners use it does not mean that we should completely reject the idea.  Many people sleep much better when they have some other assets besides having everything in bitcoin.. your choice of assets remains your choice.


In late 2013, when I got into bitcoin, I already had a fairly diversified investment portfolio that included several asset classes and even a kind of fund that provided passive income (in the event that I wanted to draw from it or let it fold into itself and/or a certain amount of flexibility involving how much I could draw from it)... so as I was investing into bitcoin, after about a year, I figured out that my allocation would be in the 10% arena as compared with my other quasi-liquid investment portfolio, so even though by the mid-to-end of 2015, I had ended up overallocating into bitcoin in the neighborhood of 13.5%-ish, there were several times, that I had gotten tempted to reallocate some of my traditional investments into bitcoin, and in the end, I refrained from doing it, and I really think that my refraining from putting even more value into bitcoin allowed me a certain level of sanity and also an ability to feel that I could mostly let my BTC portfolio ride when it went from 13.5% to 80%-ish in 2017 and then corrected back down to 45%-ish in 2018 and then went back up to nearly 90% in 2021 and then maybe came back down to 60%-ish in the lows of 2022 and then maybe now it is around 70% to 75%... so those are high percentages that I mostly just allowed to ride through BTC volatility periods mostly because I continued to have the diversification that includes other passive income sources that can be adjusted up or down depending on cashflow needs.

Yeah. my current shitcoin allocation is less than 0.5%.. but still even mostly sitting on those shitcoins, there were some periods in which they exceeded 1%. maybe even including when Bcash became available for bitcoiners, even though I mostly sold mine within a few months .. but still there have been some shitcoins that I have kept in my portfolio.. and I don't really care too much what they do.. and maybe they are there as a kind of alternative way to transact if there were a need make such transactions outside of the dollar or outside of bitcoin. 

I like to bash a lot on shitcoins, but I am not even going to blame anyone who invests and screws around with shitcoins who keeps their allocation to some relatively low amount that might even end up getting up to 10% of the size of their bitcoin holdings.. but if they go beyond that, I likely will be more questioning their judgement.. and sure there are likely some honest people who are spending their time on shitcoins, and so surely there are likely some of those folks who are able to justify their approach to time, energies and value invested into shitcoins versus bitcoin, and so I suppose there is a kind of resolution to just accept their choices, even if they are choices that I would not make... and so surely people are free to make those kinds of choices for themselves...and hopefully they are not damaging the world or misleading too many people with their investment allocation choices.

You speak nonsense gobbledy-gook.

If we are able to understand bitcoin as a paradigm-shifting invention of a kind of protocol, then anything that expects to supercede it needs to be something like 10x better otherwise, yes, the first mover advantage becomes a real thing and the copycats, whether litecoin or otherwise did not invent anything really new.. and if it might even be better than bitcoin it is not 10x better and it is not better in any kind of way that whatever their supposed contribution.. to the extent that their tokens might retain some value, could merely end up become competed away by bitcoin or become a second or third layer upon bitcoin...

Remember when that shitcoin ethereum said that bitcoin was going to become a second layer upon it.. what a bunch of nonsense.. you cannot retain decentralization or security unless the decentralized and the secure is the most base of the layers.. which is what bitcoin is.. bitcoin is the most decentralized and the most secure, so in that sense other projects could be built upon it rather than the other way around otherwise the decentralization and security ends up getting lost.. which is a lot of how bitcoin gets its value in the first place through the proof of work systems, incentives around that and the difficulty adjustments and halvenings factored therein...   

So, can you allow me to ask you something, where did the top 10 altcoins of 2013 go, and where did the topcoins of 2017 go? Such as XLM, LISK, EOS, BCH...and thousands of shitcoins that many people call potential and bring us new technology, where have they gone? I believe that the projects you call top altcoins will suffer the same fate as the projects I mentioned. They are just created to hype and scam people and then disappear without any real utility or application.

Bitcoin is also affected if some shitcoin disappears or an exchange goes bankrupt because not everyone is invested in bitcoin for the long term or for its potential. There are many speculators and gamblers that exist in the market and those people will often be the ones to dump their bitcoins whenever negative news spreads in the market. You cannot expect that all bitcoin investors are long-term investors, there will be one and the other.


I agree that bitcoin reaching ATH is not completely determined by supply and demand, but have you noticed that every bull season that passes, the new ATH is always higher than the old ATH? Isn't that enough to prove that the demand for bitcoin is growing higher every day?

Well yeah.. you can just keep plugging away, so each person is going to have differing goals.. and so maybe since you have been in bitcoin longer, you might have had been able to accumulate more bitcoin than some others who are brand new to bitcoin, and some guys might consider that they would like to get to 2 BTC in the next 10 years.. and so along the way they might have several targets, such as first reaching 1 million satoshis.. then reaching 21 million, then reaching 50 million.. and then 1 BTC.. and then 1.5 BTC and etc, etc. etc...

so like you mentioned, there could be times in your life where you end up getting some extra cash come your way.. such as $2k that you did not expect, and maybe you decide you are going to use $1,200 to buy bitcoin and then you have some other personal plans for the other $800.. but your level of aggressiveness and consistency can pay off, and if you clearly consider yourself in an accumulation phase, then you should not be wanting to engage in behaviors that might be screwing up your plan.. but you also don't want to act so aggressively that you have not adequately planned various expenses in your life.

Another thing with bitcoin price dynamics, the longer that you are in bitcoin, and if you are able to exercise prudent and reasonable practices, then you can surely engage in practices of buying on the dip or even shaving off a little bit of bitcoin at various points in which the BTC price rips UPwardly a lot.. and sure the BTC price might not correct back down, but if you figure out how to sell small amounts of BTC, then you should not necessarily be concerned if you ended up being correct or not about anticipating a correction.. and surely it is not easy to get ahead of the BTC price and that is frequently why some guys will refuse to sell any BTC at all while they are in their accumulation phase until they get to a certain level of profits and also a certain level of accumulation... so sometimes any sales of BTC will end up falling into a category of spend and replace within a fairly short period of time.