Does someone with a reddit account want to let this guy know what's going on.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/x4h2o/has_anyone_had_any_dealings_with/

Anybody made any more progress on this one?  is it time to call it yet and just divide up the BTC ?

I didn't get a useful response from the agency I contacted last month, so checking an alternative.

On the price appreciation, that sounds nice for those out of pocket $$, but those out BTC might be less happy.  I don't think there was ever a comprehensive list of creditors available either.  Given six months has passed, some pro-rating payment might be easiest to put the whole thing to rest.

Yes, the opposite would be true - people tend to look at self interest, and if 1700BTC or what ever it is is was worth only $1700, the BTC holders would be pissed off and the $$ holders out of luck.  (hmm, nice asymmetry)

Anyway, I'm still looking at recovery although my progress is slow - but that only addresses one person, and not the actual number of WBX scammed people.  Andre should have some shit land on his doorstep for this mess, but certainly there are many people involved.  It have been six months (or so/or nearly), so some division seems sensible.

either way, it's messy - if I ended up with 1/2 of what I was owed, I'd be content 

My stance:

* I'd like to get payments made ASAP
* I don't have a full list of creditors, so don't know what percentage I should be paying everyone
* Andre is ignoring (or not getting) my email
* I am not a lawyer, and don't know what I am allowed or required to do with the funds I'm holding.

I don't know how to proceed from there.  I still have the 1800-ish BTC safe and sound.

As for what rate to use when paying out, I have been thinking about that.  Here's a simple example to try to make the picture clearer:

Suppose there are 1 customers.  A has $1 in his accounf and B has 1 BTC.  At the time trading stops the price is $1/BTC.  The $ goes missing but we have the 1 BTC still.  Then the price goes up to $10/BTC before we pay out.  I see two cases, X and Y:

(X): If we pay out using the old $1/BTC price, total debt = $1 + $1 = $2, we pay out 50%.
A gets 0.5 BTC = $5 and B get 0.5 BTC.

(Y): If we pay out using the new$10/BTC price, total debt = $1 + $10 = $11, we pay out 90.9%.
A gets 0.091 BTC = $0.90, B gets 0.909 BTC.

In X, where we use the old price, the dollar holders end up with more than they were owed, while the BTC holders end up with less.
In Y, using the new higher price, everyone gets the same fraction of what they were owed.

Y looks like the fairer case to me.  What does anyone else think?  Can someone make a case for dollar holders to be making a profit on the dollars they were holding when the price of BTC goes up?  Maybe I'm missing something.

Given the time that has passed, my proposal to move things forward are as follows:

1. We appoint a creditor to manage this process
2. We set up a list whereby creditors can submit claims
3. This list is held open for an agreed period eg. 2 months or so
4. Claims are reconciled with the most recent backup Dooglus holds (where reasonably possible - I understand there has been some sale of debt and the backup isn't the very latest, I believe a reasonably accurate job can be made)
5. Payments are made following the claim period.


Acknowledged, some people may miss out however in the real world, some creditors will have already written the loss off given the period that has passed. Other people simply will not care as their loss may be nominal.

I was in a hurry yesterday when I posted.  There are more options, including the one Seal proposed.  He suggested converting BTC into AUD at the current price, but allocating it to creditors at the old price.  Let's call that option Z.

In Z, we sell the 1 BTC for the new price of $10, but use the old price to calculate the total debt ($1 + $1 = $2).  So we can pay everyone out 500% of what they're owed: A gets $5 and B gets $5.  Actually that seems to be exactly the same as (X) above, except that everyone is paid out in dollars, not bitcoins.

From a practical point of view, I'd rather pay out in bitcoins.  Then I don't have to work out how to make international bank transfers, etc.  Paying Bitcoins is much easier.

I agree with Patrick that (Y) seems to be the fairest option.

I suspect that if put up a claims page, some percentage of accounts will remain unclaimed.  I have no way of contacting account holders; WBX never collected email address (although I expect Andre has a significant number of emails from disgruntled customers in his inbox).  It seems likely that the amounts in unclaimed accounts could offset any new creditors which come to light.  But that's just a guess; I have no way of knowing for sure how many customers made deposits which never got further than Andre's bank account, and never touched the WBX database at all.

Well, A gets 0.154 BTC which is $1.54, but he was only owed $1.00, so he's made a profit on the deal which doesn't seem right.  I don't see why anyone would be entitled to get more than 100% of what they're owed, unless everyone does.

I guess at the end of the day it doesn't matter what "seems right", it matters what's legal.  There must be laws about what to do in this situation.  Maybe not about bitcoin, but what if it was gold, or some other commodity.

I was reading the BitFloor thread yesterday.  The situation there is the exact opposite - the BTC are missing, but the dollars are whole.  There's lots of argument there.  The people with dollars on deposit argue that they don't want their dollars being used to reimburse the BTC holders, whereas the BTC holders argue that if the company is insolvent then its assets need to be distributed proportionally to all creditors.  Others say that it would be illegal to distribute any assets at all without bringing in a liquidator, and are telling Roman that he must seek legal advice before doing anything.

In the WBX situation it's more complicated I think.  I don't know if there was ever a company registered that owned the exchange, or if it was all a scam from the beginning.  Even if WBX was owned by High Net Worth, it seems the company registration lapsed while the exchange was still operating, and so some claim that Andre is personally liable for the debts.

So do I need to speak to an Australian lawyer about how to proceed?  I don't want to spend the little remaining funds on legal expenses, but also don't want to do the wrong thing and end up in legal trouble as a result.

Thanks.  I'll do that and report back here.

Incidentally, do we have any proof that we were really dealing with Andre or High Net Worth Property and not just an anonymous Internet scammer using those identities?

Fair point!

And I'd rather this be settled without expensive fees being taken out by lawyers. I've already consulted one who has told me for claims any less than $40k, its simply not worth it as the costs will outweigh the potential return. Official letters have to be sent to serve as notice and fees alone for these letters to start the process are around at least in the hundreds of dollars.