>> (p.1)
    Author Topic: Pay On Target: New High variance payout System Offered by Ozcoin  (Read 36613 times)

    • Graet (OP)
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    December 18, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
    Last edit: December 28, 2012, 04:16:12 AM by Graet
     #1
    Pay On Target

    In an effort to bring some fun back to mining
    and offer a high variance reward system to those that like a gamble.
    You get more for shares of higher difficulty, meaning you get a big reward if you're the block finder.

    We are offering a unique NEW payout system:
     Pay On Target
    where higher value shares are paid at a higher value following this formula

    Code:
    [(1-a)/(1-a*wd^(1-a)*X^(a-1))]*(wd*B/D)*(min(X,sd)/wd)^a
    where
    B = Block reward - Pool fee
    D = current difficulty
    X = cap, currently 5*DNEW
    work difficulty = difficulty pool sends to miner (see variable difficulty)
    share difficulty = difficulty or target of share submitted to pool after hashing
    a = a variable currently set to 0.8 but share value will be capped at 5*D

    Pay On Target Pool fee will be set at 2% NEW

    As always over time everything should even out to a 98% PPS rate BUT there isn't much time till GPUs become unviable, it is possible to come out ahead if you are lucky.
    So I will ask "do you feel lucky? well do ya?"

    IMPORTANT: POT will only be available on stratum servers.
    You WILL make a loss if attempting to mine on getwork/ecoinpool servers
    Stratum mining node addresses listed on "Worker" page on site.
    This is a Per Account setting - if you want to split miners over payout methods feel free to make a second account Smiley
    Set Pay on Target radio button on User Account -> Pool Options

    Who to blame
    ckolivas/conman for the idea
    organofcorti and Meni Rosenfeld for help and advice on the more technical aspects and formula.
    Blaksmith for coding it
    Thanks for the help guys, much appreciated Smiley
    Me for thinking it could be fun, give our stratum servers a good loadtest and attract some miners to Ozcoin.

    Please consider this an initial trial period, we have done many simulations but reserve the right to change parameters. Please check this thread for updates regularly. Once the
    trial period is over no further adjustments should be needed Smiley

    Best wishes and best of luck to all.
    Graet


    POT calculator, thanks to kano
    http://tradebtc.net/potcalc.php




    Note: No Merged Mining available on Stratum servers
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  • -ck
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    December 18, 2012, 11:14:05 AM
    Last edit: December 26, 2012, 12:10:26 AM by ckolivas
     #2
    A lot of this idea came out of the fact that people feel cheated if they're the block finder and get no more than any other share for submitting it, and that now that cgminer scrolls difficulty, people constantly ask "so are the higher shares worth more?". It also acts as a disincentive to people acting maliciously performing what's known as a withholding attack by not submitting the block solve. It also adds an incentive to people mining on the fringe of profitability that they might actually make a profit if their hardware is the one that is lucky at that time. Ultimately, it's just gambling and over the very long term leads to the same rewards as PPS, but you never know your luck...

    Here's an example:
    [2012-12-18 22:52:10] Accepted 0000aa69 Diff 98.5K/1 GPU 1 pool 0
    That share was worth 0.01435750 BTC where the current PPS rate is 0.00000712, meaning that one share was worth more than 2000 shares. On the other hand, diff 1 shares are worth 1/5th of what the going PPS rate is.

    Note that in cgminer, up to and including version 2.10.2, the "best share" value may be wrong whereas the per-share statistic is accurate. This should be fixed from 2.10.3 onwards.
    Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel
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    -ck

  • kano
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    December 18, 2012, 11:18:45 AM
    Last edit: December 18, 2012, 11:59:33 AM by kano
     #3
    I've been mining on it for 50 minutes and got a 51.7K/8 share in the first 6 minutes Cheesy
    Edit: Correction Sad not 51.7K/8 - it was 2.25K/8 ... but still good Smiley
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  • Wave
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    December 18, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
     #4
    I'm in with my 1.21 Jiggawatts for a spin, what the heck ;-)


    -Wave

  • John (John K.)
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    December 18, 2012, 12:17:32 PM
     #5
    Awesome!  Grin

  • Meni Rosenfeld
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    December 18, 2012, 12:36:20 PM
    Last edit: December 19, 2012, 12:16:06 PM by Meni Rosenfeld
     #6
    Quote from: Graet on December 18, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
    high variance reward system
    That is an understatement. With a=0.8 (or any a>0.5) the variance is infinite. Greater than the variance of solo mining. The distribution will be quite different though, you'll have a high chance to get moderate rewards, and a small chance to get very high rewards.

    The variance quickly goes down when decreasing a past 0.5, though. To get the variance to be less than solo variance, you need a < D (2D + work_difficulty). Edit: should be a < 1/2 - wd/(8D) (approximately).

    Quote from: ckolivas on December 18, 2012, 11:14:05 AM
    A lot of this idea came out of the fact that people feel cheated if they're the block finder and get no more than any other share for submitting it, ... It also acts as a disincentive to people acting maliciously performing what's known as a withholding attack by not submitting the block solve.
    The goals should be clarified because this is a very ineffective way to solve these problems. You could do the standard method of block finding fee, but it greatly increases the variance.
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  • John (John K.)
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    December 18, 2012, 12:40:00 PM
     #7
    Quote from: Meni Rosenfeld on December 18, 2012, 12:36:20 PM
    Quote from: Graet on December 18, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
    high variance reward system
    That is an understatement. With a=0.8 (or any a>0.5) the variance is infinite. Greater than the variance of solo mining. The distribution will be quite different though, you'll have a high chance to get moderate rewards, and a small chance to get very high rewards.

    The variance quickly goes down when decreasing a past 0.5, though. To get the variance to be less than solo variance, you need a < D (2D + work_difficulty).

    Quote from: ckolivas on December 18, 2012, 11:14:05 AM
    A lot of this idea came out of the fact that people feel cheated if they're the block finder and get no more than any other share for submitting it, ... It also acts as a disincentive to people acting maliciously performing what's known as a withholding attack by not submitting the block solve.
    The goals should be clarified because this is a very ineffective way to solve this problem. You could do the standard method of block finding fee, but it greatly increases the variance.
    Correct me if I'm wrong (which I think I am Grin), but won't the payouts be substantially more for previous PPS users on the pool? Previously, we get paid a fixed fee per share no matter how high the difficulty is, but now we get paid the fixed fee + extra stipend based on the difficulty. I do agree on the high variance though.

  • Wave
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    December 18, 2012, 12:56:07 PM
     #8
    Feedback - On the POT stats page we need per share price.  I'm going to track every hour for a bit, but that would be nice.  I have been tracking more frequently for now.  Way over PPS, way under, and now trending slightly under.  Figure I'll run it 24 hours and see what the luck shows.


    -Wave

  • Meni Rosenfeld
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    December 18, 2012, 12:57:29 PM
    Last edit: December 18, 2012, 01:08:45 PM by Meni Rosenfeld
     #9
    Quote from: John (johnthedong) on December 18, 2012, 12:40:00 PM
    Quote from: Meni Rosenfeld on December 18, 2012, 12:36:20 PM
    Quote from: Graet on December 18, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
    high variance reward system
    That is an understatement. With a=0.8 (or any a>0.5) the variance is infinite. Greater than the variance of solo mining. The distribution will be quite different though, you'll have a high chance to get moderate rewards, and a small chance to get very high rewards.

    The variance quickly goes down when decreasing a past 0.5, though. To get the variance to be less than solo variance, you need a < D (2D + work_difficulty).

    Quote from: ckolivas on December 18, 2012, 11:14:05 AM
    A lot of this idea came out of the fact that people feel cheated if they're the block finder and get no more than any other share for submitting it, ... It also acts as a disincentive to people acting maliciously performing what's known as a withholding attack by not submitting the block solve.
    The goals should be clarified because this is a very ineffective way to solve this problem. You could do the standard method of block finding fee, but it greatly increases the variance.
    Correct me if I'm wrong (which I think I am Grin), but won't the payouts be substantially more for previous PPS users on the pool? Previously, we get paid a fixed fee per share no matter how high the difficulty is, but now we get paid the fixed fee + extra stipend based on the difficulty. I do agree on the high variance though.
    It's not plus, it's instead. Note the (1-a) term in the payout formula; it means that for a share that is just barely valid (share_difficulty = work_difficulty) you would get just 20% of the normal payout (with a=0.8 ), and you'd need the share to be much more difficult than that to get near the normal payment. On the flip side, if your share happens to be very difficult, you could get for it more than the entire block reward.

    This poses high variance for the pool, not just the miners. I don't think 3% fee will cut it. Maybe a=0.4 will be better.
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  • John (John K.)
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    December 18, 2012, 01:01:03 PM
     #10
    Quote from: Meni Rosenfeld on December 18, 2012, 12:57:29 PM
    Quote from: John (johnthedong) on December 18, 2012, 12:40:00 PM
    Quote from: Meni Rosenfeld on December 18, 2012, 12:36:20 PM
    Quote from: Graet on December 18, 2012, 11:13:44 AM
    high variance reward system
    That is an understatement. With a=0.8 (or any a>0.5) the variance is infinite. Greater than the variance of solo mining. The distribution will be quite different though, you'll have a high chance to get moderate rewards, and a small chance to get very high rewards.

    The variance quickly goes down when decreasing a past 0.5, though. To get the variance to be less than solo variance, you need a < D (2D + work_difficulty).

    Quote from: ckolivas on December 18, 2012, 11:14:05 AM
    A lot of this idea came out of the fact that people feel cheated if they're the block finder and get no more than any other share for submitting it, ... It also acts as a disincentive to people acting maliciously performing what's known as a withholding attack by not submitting the block solve.
    The goals should be clarified because this is a very ineffective way to solve this problem. You could do the standard method of block finding fee, but it greatly increases the variance.
    Correct me if I'm wrong (which I think I am Grin), but won't the payouts be substantially more for previous PPS users on the pool? Previously, we get paid a fixed fee per share no matter how high the difficulty is, but now we get paid the fixed fee + extra stipend based on the difficulty. I do agree on the high variance though.
    It's note plus, it's instead. Note the (1-a) term in the payout formula; it means that for a share that is just barely valid (share_difficulty = work_difficulty) you would get just 20% of the normal payout (with a=0.8 ), and you'd need the share to be much more difficult than that to get near the normal payment. On the flip side, if your share happens to be very difficult, you could get for it more than the entire block reward.

    This poses high variance for the pool, not just the miners. I don't think 3% fee will cut it. Maybe a=0.4 will be better.
    Oops, didn't notice the (1-a). Now this would be like a lower variance solo mining, where you can end up getting ~20% of your regular PPS income to a lot more. Seems to be better than solo when you could end up with 0 though.

  • John (John K.)
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    December 18, 2012, 01:05:19 PM
     #11
    Quote from: Wave on December 18, 2012, 12:56:07 PM
    Feedback - On the POT stats page we need per share price.  I'm going to track every hour for a bit, but that would be nice.  I have been tracking more frequently for now.  Way over PPS, way under, and now trending slightly under.  Figure I'll run it 24 hours and see what the luck shows.


    -Wave
    That'll be the 3% fee PPS rate, but depending on the share difficulty you submit. Man I'm hoping that I get more 300k shares like the one I got a couple days ago.  Grin

  • K1773R
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    December 18, 2012, 01:05:43 PM
     #12
    well this seems ot be the fairest payout system so far (no its not gambling, ur getting payed for ur work and not proportional/similiar), gl with it Smiley
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  • John (John K.)
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    December 18, 2012, 01:10:25 PM
     #13
    I guess I'm down under if the average share is below 5. Is that correct?  Huh

  • Wave
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    December 18, 2012, 01:11:23 PM
     #14
    Yup, understood.  But curious about trending.  I hear you on the share!  My last block solve was a 40M diff share!  Let me figure the payoff on that one...


    -Wave

  • Graet (OP)
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    December 18, 2012, 01:15:55 PM
    Last edit: December 18, 2012, 01:35:49 PM by Graet
     #15
    Quote
    Please consider this an initial trial period, we have done many simulations but reserve the right to change parameters. Please check this thread for updates regularly. Once the
    trial period is over no further adjustments should be needed Smiley

    Sounds like we need to invoke this and reduce "a"
    edited 1st post with some a = 0.5 samples
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  • DutchBrat
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    December 18, 2012, 01:19:53 PM
     #16
    Can I use Hashpower.com on Stratum servers yet ?

    That would be like gambling to the power of 10 !!!

    I like it  Grin

  • Wave
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    December 18, 2012, 01:22:52 PM
     #17
    Quote from: John (johnthedong) on December 18, 2012, 01:10:25 PM
    I guess I'm down under if the average share is below 5. Is that correct?  Huh

    Does not appear that way:

    I'm at 5021 shares, avg/ Dif 10.938 and payout is 0.03173515, or per share of 0.00000632.


    -Wave

  • JWU42
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    December 18, 2012, 01:25:54 PM
     #18
    Jump off PoT and then hit a 143K share  Undecided
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  • DutchBrat
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    December 18, 2012, 01:26:21 PM
     #19
    Quote from: JWU42 on December 18, 2012, 01:25:54 PM
    Jump off PoT and then hit a 143K share  Undecided
    The system is rigged I tell ya... Rigged !!!  Wink

  • Graet (OP)
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    December 18, 2012, 01:38:42 PM
     #20
    Moving to a = 0.5 while i look at more figures Cheesy
    and 4% fee on advice
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