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    Author Topic: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP.  (Read 2032324 times)
    Odalv
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    November 03, 2014, 03:10:41 PM
     #15421

    MM SC costs a lot of resources.
    MM SC has to keep(and collect) all transaction from SC.
    No one will be able to keep all sc-blockchain (for 1,000,000,000 SC) and MM them.

    this sounds reasonable
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    => There will be only few (1 .. 5 ?) MM SC's
    MM will be only used for change bitcoin protocol.



    but it doesn't solve the increase in mining centralization as only larger mining pools will be able to MM.
    You can choose mining pools. Mining pools operators will offer you more than 1 pool. They will offer you
     a) 1 pool for MM SC1,
     b) 1 pool for MM SC2
     c) 1 pool for MM (SC1+SC2)
     d) 1 pool for NO MM

    not sure how that helps.  as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM.  since they are the only ones who can derive income from MM, they push out at the very least solo miners and smaller pools.  that's centralization.
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    and it doesn't solve the increased susceptibility to attack.

    Please explain, I do not understand. How somebody will attack.

    currently mining pie includes Discus 29%, ghash 18%, Knc 7%.  let's say Austin convinces all 3 of these pools to MM his SC.  well, right there all it would take is for Discus unilaterally to perform a 51% attack.  see Peter Todd explanation as to why this might be beneficial for Discus:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2k01du/peter_todd_on_twitter_the_sidechains_paper_is/clgpjpx

    >as you said, only larger actors can afford storing the huge data reqs for MM

    As I said, there will be only few MM SC. (for purpose of protocol change).
    There will be 1B SC's using different security model (oracles, trusted entities, SNARK, .. who knows)

    It is possible to create SC what is resilient to 51% attack of MC(every SC what is not MM with MC). This makes 51% attack on MC even more worthless.


    and these 1 Billion SC's will move all tx's off the MC making mining failure almost guaranteed.

    Not ALL. MC will be clearing network between SC.
    It is not possible to change amount of scBTC in SC without MC transaction.
    This can keep block size of MC smaller -> more people can run full node (not only few companies)


    No. scBTC is interchangeable with  other scBTC.

    Clearing system in SC's is  meaningless. Reserve system is meaningless. Once moved to scBTC they are gone and an independent new asset is born and may  never return to MC.

    If you have 3 BTC in SC1  and 5 BTC in SC2  then you are only able to change owners of 8 BTC (SC1 will always contains 3 and SC2 5 BTC) => no new BTC can be added/extracted without MC transaction. You can only change owners of this coins.

    btw: If you re-read "Appendix A Federated peg" then no changes are required to current bitcoin protocol.
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    The key observation is that any enhancement to Bitcoin Script can be implemented externally by having a trusted federation of mutually distrusting
    functionaries evaluate the script and accept by signing for an ordinary multisignature script. That is, the functionaries act as a protocol adaptor
    by evaluating the same rules we would have wanted Bitcoin to evaluate, but cannot for lack of script enhancements

    right.  but since we were talking about "clearing system" and what you've previously mentioned as "reserve system" in describing Bitcoin in the context of SC's, i just want ppl to be clear that those two descriptions are inaccurate.  once BTC escape the Bitcoin MC over to a SC in the form of scBTC, they could be gone forever.  meaning that they are newly created assets within a new blockchain/ledger system with their own properties and which can be traded with other scBTC's on other SC's.  these will have their own fiat pricing and exchanges.  nothing mandates that these scBTC "clear" or get routed back thru a Bitcoin MC "reserve" system.  they are independent and may be gone from the Bitcoin MC forever.

    right, but I think we agreed that
    1. 1 BTC = 1 scBTC
    2. if 1 scBTC will have higher fiat value than BTC then it will not last long time because it will be fast arb. (using bitcoins from MC)
    3. locking bitcoin in SC is same as  holding BTC on MC (what if holder die ?)
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