Three main operators drive our evolution now:

1. selection
2. mutation
3. crossover (breeding)

The selection operator is the first hurdle to overcome, and self replication does it. Initially there is zero competition so selection is zero, any self replicating molecule makes the grade, it's bloom of growth goes unhindered.

When self replicating molecules occur, then the mutation operator is the first to happen, simple replicating systems are very noisy, many dice throws end up close to self replication but just miss the ability. Once a fairly stable self replicating system is established (with small mutation level) then a sea of fairly bland chemistry happens, in that sea it is possible, given time, that some crossover mechanism will arise as a mutation, and then boom it's lit. From there the genetic code lenghtens and gains complexity through mutation, crossover and selection.

Without mutation there is no evolution, a large radiation shower of the earth, although unpleasant for the inhabitants in the short term would be like hitting the nitro button for evolution. But it's not sustainable and the button must be released fairly quickly or everything dies. Optimal mutation rate overall is that which occurs naturally through selection.

All mutations are "tried" those that don't live long enough to breed, their mutation is lost forever.

Genetic algorithms are scientific proof of evolution, you can witness emergent complexity beyond which was programmed in to the original overall system, in fact the seed genome can be junk provided a replicating gene system with crossover and mutation is established. In a simple experiment like this you select the best solutions for breeding and cull the rest, after a modest number of generations excellent solutions can be achieved. I have used this method to tweak parameters of complex systems that would be impossible to do using a brute force try all combos approach.

In real life the selection is imposed by competition and environment.

We are physical manifestations of a trinary code that has been mutated and crossed over for a long long long time.

And that's all there is to it, a "creator" is not needed. If you crave a "god" then Sol is the closest thing we got. The suns energy drives all life chemistry, directly or indirectly.

EDIT: people don't realise how large the chemistry set (observable universe) is, this snapshot covers a tiny area of sky, no bigger than a tiny dot drawn on the thumbnail of an outstretched arm. They're not stars they're galaxies! At any one moment there are countless organic chemistry reactions happening under countless conditions and there are many many moments!

If anyone finds more awe in an old story book than this image then they need to seriously expand their mind.

one self replicating molecule soon has many neighbors if raw resources are plentiful. one is all it takes, a random throw does it. a MASSIVE vat of organic chemistry, see above image.


If you fall in a rough sea before breeding you have a potentially fatal swimming test ahead of you. No choice involved, guaranteed!

The simplest life forms must also endure environmental extremes etc, it's ALL a test.

It's possible, I guess nothing has zero probability.

Myself I find enough awe in the observable universe to  not want/need a deity, and my "afterlife" (the part of me that is bigger than me) is ensured in the genetic code of my children.

You guys are wasting your time.

It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a brainwashed person to understand there are no gods.

This quote is a falacy:

"Nowhere in nature do we see nature selecting anything."

Do you see birds making nests underwater? No, they select tree's or buildings, and before buildings, where did the birds select? In a natural disaster like say a firestorm, Wildlife select "run away".. Does water, that can clearly flow in all directions, select 'up'? No, because it cant, unless we remove the gravity of the situation..

Natural selection.. exists, or we would not be able to, since it's safe to assume, we are of nature in itself.

"I can show you how there IS selection available to mankind, but you won't like what I show you."

I may not like what you show, but please do..?

I guess your mum had you forced on her as opposed to choosing?

This thread is now just a waste of time, Suddenly animals cant choose? I mean, c'mon, almost everything in existance, has been discussed here using less than 60 years of knowledge, and a shite book for those who impose by trying to save people from NOTHING.

We die, period, and no-one ever did come back from the dead.

At the end, we die, only then will we wish we knew what we already know.

We are fucked over by these religions period. Your kids are sexually abused, and your families are attacked and killed by these people, while they keep all the riches. (spoils of war) you POOR fuckers. (me too lol)

When will the church divy up all that gold and give each starving child enough buy the land they can plant food on? NEVER, cause they're to busy SAVING. (for themselves)

In fact, when will they do anything instead of getting their bashers to do it for them?

Cause they're all the fuckin same.. COWARDS.

If you had a choice, forced slavery, or belief in god, I know what you'd choose, cause you already have.. you chose slavery, whatever your excuse.

Both animals and people appear to make choices. But the choices that we all make are based entirely on stimulus of some kind. Often the stimulus is made up of complex stimuli, that nobody could track down and pinpoint - almost in the same way nobody could ever track all the molecules of air that make a leaf blow this way or that in the wind, and the way that they work to make the leaf move. It's all cause and effect, action and reaction. The only way in which it is not cause and effect is in people. It works like this.

Nobody, no person, knows for a fact what will happen, even in the next second. We trust that things will happen in certain ways, based on our experience. Yet, sometimes our trust is misplaced. If it weren't, there wouldn't be any car accidents, or people killed in airliner crashes.

The thing that we trust in, is our down-deep knowledge of God. And God measures our trust in Him and makes tweaks to things in life, so that it appears that we have made choices that are different than simple cause and effect. And they ARE different than simple cause and effect. Yet, they are God's tweaks, based on the way He reads the trust and faith we have in Him.

NOTE: Like it or not, way down deep, you trust in God, and you have a certain amount of faith in Him. If you didn't, you'd be dead. What I can't understand is why people would rather ignore God, thereby committing slow suicide (It takes a long time to quench the faith God put into your heart of every person.), than accept Him and live?

But we are so close to zero probability regarding the machine of the universe having no Machine-Maker, that it might as well be zero probability. Take a look sometime, at the odds where probability scientists consider probability to be an impossibility, even though it is technically still probability. The probability that the universe or life could simply happen falls into these realms of probability that are considered by scientists to be impossible. In fact, the probability that life could have happened without a Maker is way, way, way, way, way, way, beyond the simple impossibility limits that scientists place on probability.

You forget the rest of it. Jesus said, but nothing is impossible for God. By the time you get through the eye of the needle and see that God is there, you will already be in the judgment, and there will be no chance to change your mind and believe. Why not? Here's why not.

You can only believe in things that you are not sure of. When you are sure of something that you know, you don't believe it any longer. You are beyond that... beyond simply having to believe it. You KNOW it.

Once you are in the judgment, you will KNOW that God exists. Yet you can only be saved by faith = believing. You won't have any chance to believe any longer. You will NOT be saved if you haven't believed BEFORE you get to the judgment, because in the judgment you will KNOW God exists.